Oh yeah, invasion sucks too.

Is that a "Hmmm, that's interesting." or a "Hmm, let's change that". I hope the former...

Combat has died recently, there's a lot of reasons behind it, most of which have already been stated. I think for me my desire hasn't gone down - I still solo raid Celestia even if I'm know I'll probably die just to stir stuff up with people. It's annoying being in such a passive state, when I first joined up man, you were gettin' trounced left and right and you definitely had to bulk up and learn to fight.. Not just to defend, but to take place in the raids too - you know how many times I heard people were going to raid and wished I could join so bad but couldn't because I was like level 20 and would die in a matter of seconds?

That kind of mentality is gone from the game now it feels like.. We get new people in the Nihilists and almost all of them are choosing to avoid combat completely. They get into one fight, feel totally overwhelmed, and decide "screw it" and don't ever go back to it. When I got into my first fight with Thoros I nearly crapped myself, he tore me to pieces. But my mentality was "That was awesome.. I need to be like that" and I worked to get better. The lack of combat really is two fold, yes the game is pretty damn complicated, and overwhelming, and you do need to invest pretty heavily before you feel like you're at a worthwhile state for combat. But also, the new people we get it seems just lack the motivation and the will to actually do it!

Everyone freezes up during their first few fights. Get over it.. Don't be mad at losing, don't be mad at who beat you - instead, think to yourself "How can I be like that". That's what keeps me going whenever I lose a fight to some ridiculously overpowered demi-god.. "I want to be that good, that powerful, that I can demolish anybody before me".

(@Nariah - your memory isn't bad.. Shrine powers almost NEVER got called into play, certainly not for a casual stroll across Celestia -- hell they didn't get called into action a few times during raids either.. They're definitely overused now and it's way lame.)

(@Narsrim - Ripple's nothing, if I can work through ripple on Celestia I don't see how it is you can't do the same on Nil? It's annoying yeah, but it's hardly on the same level as shrine abuse.)

First of all, you and Nariah both missed my point. The shrine that was taken down was Terentian, the shrine that was put up was Eventru. There's a sort of difference in philosophies.

Second, you contradict yourself. You say you can deal with ripple on Celestia and yet you talk about being killed there. Most old salty players have no desire to die to people because of stun. As a demigod knight I'd rather get hit by shrine powers than I would stun. Ripple is, in fact, worse for me personally than shrine powers. It's all perspective.

Why has conflict died? Ultimately I would say its because there is not enough incentive to participate and plenty of incentive not to. As others have said, there are steep entry costs (compared to other games).

In many MMOs its nice to have certain add ons (which are all free and pretty much anyone who knows how to use the internet can get them to work within 5 minutes) but its rare that it is absolutely essential to have a script to participate in PvP. In Lusternia, if you don't have a system, you are not going to be successful in combat. I've been playing IRE games for about 9 years now and rather than become less complex to allow for more participation they just seem to get more and more complex as if there is a goal to beat the system makers. You cannot beat the system makers except by making it unnecessary to have a system to participate. Or at least make it so that the people who do make systems for public consumption (thereby making it possible for your players who for whatever reason cannot make their own system to actually play the game) a preview to necessary system changes when the next batch of 30 new afflictions or variations of afflictions comes rolling in. I don't bother trying to keep my system up to date anymore but I'm sure people like Zarquan who are doing a HUGE service to this game certainly wouldn't mind their job being just a little easier!

Skills and the like aren't really that huge a barrier. There are many, many ways to get credits and its more inherent to the actual process of playing the game than coding or tweaking a system is. What I mean by that is when you are earning credits the hard way you actually get to play the game at least instead of the constant testing, testing, testing of system building.

But like I said before, the barriers to entry aren't really the true cause. If there was enough incentive to overcome those barriers, more would do it. Nor do the barriers explain why those who have already overcome those barriers don't participate. In the end, its a zero sum game. In the end, my being as good as I can possibly be at conflict and engaging in all the conflict activities that are available means that sooner or later (these days sooner) I will "win" myself out of having anything to do because my opponents will no longer be playing with me. Not only will they no longer be playing with me, they will eventually reach a point of not being able to play with me. Domoths are a perfect example. The more Ascendants you have the more Domoths you can hold. The more Domoths you can hold, the more Ascendants you will have. The only way another org is going to catch up is if the other org's Ascendants stop playing. Hoping for other people to quit the game is not exactly a winning mechanic. The more times Demon Lords are slain, the more the Necomentate falls, the more power other orgs gain, the weaker Magnagora gets. The same applies for any org that is beaten down on a regular basis. If you lose, you get nothing. You just lose. You don't get points for effort. So why keep making the effort? RP only goes so far.

I've talked about the downfalls of being "winners" before and why those players stop playing so I won't bother again. It's pretty much common sense.

Maybe the answer is simpler though. Maybe the game just isn't really designed with the idea of people staying around long term. That would make a lot of sense. Newer players wouldn't get instapwned by people who have been around forever. Conflict wouldn't get stale because the people who have already done it countless times before wouldn't be there getting bored doing it again. Older players wouldn't be there to teach younger ones but honestly, at this point, most of what the really really old timers are teaching is kind of cynical. Who knows.

EDIT: Not to mention if people just naturally stop playing as part of a normal cycle it would save a lot of the efforts to try to "fix" the game to accomodate people who really probably should have stopped playing a long time ago.

I don't play anymore because I found a game with good pvp conflict that's still fresh for me. I doubt I'll play forever but the state of the online game market pretty much ensures there will be another "fresh" game out there when this one gets old.

Sadly, the major problem with the Cycle theory is that they are a business. A business does everything it can to keep as many customers as possible. The Business to Balance ratio is heavily, heavily weighted in the former, as it should be in any business. There is less "how can the game be better" and more "how can the game be more interesting".

What game are you playing? If it's Warhammer, let me know what server you're on.

The biggest reason I haven't been playing recently is school - but even after it may be tough for me to come back, for most of the reasons that Catarin mentioned. Once I stopped playing Lusternia due to less time caused by increasing school work, I started playing games that provided for a more 'instant' sense of fun. First person shooters like GoW, or other PvP based MMO's, such as Warhammer Online.

Lusternia is perhaps one of the deepest computer games and virtual world's in existence, but in order to enjoy it you have to have the time and work ethic to get that far into it. Every aspect is deep - the history, the world, and above all the combat. I worked for over a year on my own combat system to mediocre success, before I finally said 'forget it, I'm using Cat's.' The game got exponentially more fun for me after that. Systems make or break the enjoyment of the combat aspect of the game.

Which begs two questions, one of which Catarin already posed. Why make it so difficult and tedious to create one? Certain parts of combat are geared towards breaking systems. Typos are fixed without letting anyone know what the changes were. New afflictions are introduced by the boatload.

The second is that in most cases you have to pay for a system. Most developers, upon writing one, don't feel inclined to give it out for free. Catarin is an exception, and more recently, Iasmos. They do charge for service, though, which if you're just a person trying to pick up the game and play, is necessary. There aren't many other games out there that nearly require you to pay someone else to learn how to 'win'. Go look at Gamefaqs.com for example.

Also, you have to go elsewhere to get the software needed to enjoy the game at it's fullest level. It's like if WoW made the game, and then said "But we didn't make a usable GUI, but this other company did." It's weird you have to go somewhere else to get a client that makes combat possible (unless you're Shiri). In some cases that software is free (MUSH), but for the more user friendly and easier to learn use option (CMUD), you're going to be paying, again.

All of this might be worth it if there was something more than just the thrill of the fight to be gained. It's one of the reasons why I have actually stuck to warhammer - the PvP is easy to get into, 1 hour vs 1 year to learn the basics, areas are divided up based on level, so no level 40 people stomping newbs, and you can be usefull to your team from level 1. As soon as you make your character, you can click the "join scenario queue" button, and actually land a few kills. And it's not like the combat isn't complex. It's like chess, anyone can learn the rules and play, but to really excel you need to master it. Lusternia doesn't have that same middle ground.

And the rewards are enormous. The best XP is gained from killing other people. When you do scenarios (which are like arena games here), you get renown points which you can spend on skills and gear, and when you kill people in 'real PvP' (think non arena), you get influence points, which you can spend on the really awesome stuff.

Sure, there are UI mods available for the game, but you don't need any of them. There is a basic scripting system for writing macros, but those aren't needed either, and there are plenty of free resources to teach you how to make them.

Combat in Lusternia can be thrilling and blood pumping, but only to a point and at the cost of skills, a client, a system, and time. You spend time learning to fight, you spend time gathering the in game resources to fight, you spend time putting up defenses to fight, but you don't get much in return.

The complexity of the combat might be too difficult to fix. It would feel wrong to start removing afflictions and 'dumbing things down'. What Iron Realms could do is offer a nice, free, easy to use yet powerful client, and have some free resources for how to build a system for your game of choice. Does no one else find it odd that Lusternia is like a game that comes with no instruction booklet on how to use the controller? And it's not a very intuitive controller.

The game could also start offering more individual rewards for PvP - not just the thrill of fighting someone, the RP of your character, or the glory of your city. Combat based achievements like you see on Steam or Xbox Live would be nice. Some sort of point system that you earn through PvP that you can spend on your character.

The system is far from unfixable, the cost/reward equation just needs to be balanced.

I like the idea of having a rewards system for PvP. My long-time complaint about combat in lusternia is that it can be incredibly costly (gold, reagents, curing items, experience, time) to get started and maintain ability in the game, but they've intentionally made the experience earned suck and maybe you get to pick up a couple of herbs.

What's really funny is that when I asked other players why this is a long time ago, I got the answer that they wanted to discourage PvP outside of the arena and specific RP events (like raiding) by giving no incentive to do it.

Here's the catch: if you implement a rewards system as it is now, there are going to be a small handful of people that instantly stack up everything you can earn, and the rest of us will gain nothing until we've spent the insane amount of time to learn to fight properly and grind our way to combat entry level.

Combat in general does need to be changed to be less about stats and more about skill. The most fun I've ever had in MUDs is when I could get my level 45 character into combat and do well.

Example: I used to play a mud called Evarayn. For all intents, it was good mud that was run by terrible administration. I took my level 40 monk (in a 110 cap game) and was literally the best combatant in the game until I lost interest (if there's any old Eva players here, I was Kage, and admittedly when I created a new character later I was outclassed by a few people). I LOVED that game, even when I lost and despite an administration dead-set on ruining the game, because I didn't have to grind and I could win.

I have difficulty fathoming a good, even roleplay-intensive MUD without PK. It's the reason I could never hang around New Worlds or Threshold very long; without conflict, struggle, and opposition (even if they are indirect), what is the point? You start your character, make your friends, level up, gather gold and rank, and then... one day you realize: it's all moot because you don't have any outstanding cause or goals. If I wanted to farm I'd play Ruinscape.

Reading through the old event posts, I can't help but feel Lusternia was a more interested place back in the day. Most of the recent events have been skill additions with he exception of Raezon's return and the Ascension (both of which I sadly missed). This is a bit beyond the scope of the thread, but in the same spirit- Someone or something needs to oxidize the atmosphere.

Regarding the client issue. MM2k is out there, and it's free. The coding is similar to that of Z/CMud, and it's actually where I started out. I'll even offer full support to anyone trying to set up a system on the client.

The events are predictable now. The only time an event is ever held is when something new comes out. Events are not held to add to flavor or make the game more interesting. I thought the recent Dwarf event was awesome.... until the end came and "surprise", we now have 6 new skills that we all need to learn about If there is something happening that doesn't normally happen, you can bet it's one of these:

1) New class
2) New skill
3) New/returning God
4) New Ascension
5) New Area

Events are never held just to be events. Number 5 is the only one that comes close, because usually the new area is just that-- a new area with a new honours quest. It's a fun little addition, like the Snow Valley or the Clarramore gardens.

It's gotten to the point now where if I notice there's something event-wise happening, I'll just log off, because it's not fun or interesting. Everyone wants to be there first, because the event inevitably means the world will end if we don't do exactly as we're told, and everyone is killing everyone else so they can be the only ones to get the reward. The story is different in each event, but the process and results are the same.

Everything is just too predictable.

Yes, Lusternia (and all of the IRE games, with the possible exception of Aetolia?) does seem to vastly lack that quaint, subtle element that makes business in the game world smooth and believable.

At this point though, I would kill for a lame, cliche world event. Or some bloody conflict that didn't mean busy work.

I love invasion style events where it's widespread death and pwnage, and oodles of mobs to kill, and they invade your org.

Of course, I understand why the Admin don't do these often.

Being sort of a nit-pick, I demand it make good sense- a legion of zombies swarming over Lusternia because Estarra just watched Dawn of the Dead would be annoying. The false-god clones looked like they were fun, though.

That would be awsome though! Esterra just shouts that she just finished watching Dawn of the Dead and commands the undead to rise. It would be nice is invasion mobs weren't aggressive against people of a lower circle but in general they are fun.

I know! Let's all get together- and some of us can pretend to be zombies. I'll have contracted it while exploring Glomdoring, then I can bite Llandros- and we'll run about molesting each other and gnawing on novices, all the while uttering gibberish sounds and making zombie noises until Shamarah logs on to PK us, or the Admin gives us a real event! Killing two birds with one stone.

Use your imagination- it will be just like when we were kids... except without being humped by the neighbor's dog.

Your idea sounds like the plague event we had before!

I'd like more internal organization events that are based around something other than do/die scenario. I also like events that challenge the moral standards of an organization that don't have black and white endings (read: win-or-lose). These don't need to be grand ordeals, but something worthwhile and fun. Example:

A small orphan Viscanti boy whose heritage is better hidden than most is discovered stealing from local shops for food. He's emaciated, clearly well into the later stages of starvation, and he's now pissed off some pompous Celestian denizen who wants this tainted beast destroyed! Of course, the denizenry of Celest is at odds with what to do. Do they cast this starving orphan out of the Resurgence of the Light because he was stealing for food? to survive? Do they execute him for being the tainted refuse he is? Do they accept him? If they do, what sort of acceptance will it be? Will he grow up to find himself in servitude to the wealthy in Celest? A 'citizen' made into a slave? The possibilities are endless, and they'd be fun if player driven.

=====+=====

I want something that redefines who we are and what sort of things we do that isn't based upon a background story. I want drama!

And how awesome would it be if there were denizens who were pro/con for something like the example I gave willing to roleplay with players for potential options? Let's say the child is accepted, that doesn't mean the Jethri isn't going to send him a pie with ground glass in it! Of course, that would require some help...

Celest makes their poor people live in a shanty town outside the city walls! I bet the denizens decide to kill the orphan for stealing.