My post was saying that we should have more uses for power in addition to the current ones. If power meant something to people on a personal basis they would be more motivated to protect and expand their organization's supply.

As for negative power, that only happened very early in the game (open beta) when none was yet being added from villages, totems, etc. and no one had been blocked from drawing.

I feel like you may have missed my post here, judging from some of the things you wrote from this post on, but this is what I said:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=661031

The point isn't to create a game or a new quest, or anything more complicated than simple PvP. There doesn't need to be more special "games" coded and put into place to encourage PvP or conflict, other than simple objectives. I'm not saying you need to create an 'arena type FFA', like you mentioned.

By 'fight zones', I mean the areas we already have (maybe some more added). Mostly the off-prime planes, like Celestia, Nil, and nexus worlds during a weakening.

You're saying you don't want people doing PvP just for the sake of getting experience - but that's what the objectives are for. Even if you, as a player, are doing it because you want rewards, you are able to justify it through in-character means by letting your character do it because you want to kill supernals, demon lords, tide lords, constructs, etc, etc. Each of these things you're trying to kill or bring down represents the objective of your character - but a by product of this is that you, as a player, should feel like your -personal- time is being rewarded. That's what a game is all about.

You would also have a system in place that Xenthos described, which is a -very- good idea, where certain areas, or conflict centers, have varying degrees of difficulty. So 1 or 2 people couldn't raid Celestia and win, for example. This would help prevent people from farming the areas. Or, as weakenings are, they're only available at certain times. But these things should be evenly spaced so there's always something to do if you feel like it. Conflict areas available for a lone player or two, and some for large groups.

You say that you don't want to load down PvP with rewards - but what rewards are there right now? I can't think of a -single- reward involved in PvP, other than the glory of your organization or whatever fun you may have just fighting for the sake of it. There are absolutely no individual rewards.

This is why we are saying that there should be individual perks. Lets say, for example, that a raid occurs in one of the big areas. The defending organization goes up, and fighting ensues. When it ends, one side wins and one side doesn't, or maybe it was a draw and they just left. But what do you have to show for this? Everyone lost a little xp (or a lot), and that's it.

What would be nice is if there was little to no negative side effects - or if there were negative side effects, they would be easily removed or made up for. No matter who wins the raid or the battle, everyone who participated should have something to show for it, something that made it feel like being involved in the conflict was worth there time - even if you don't land a single kill, you should get something. Perhaps some karma for every person one of your allies kills. And if you kill something, have a mechanic that gives you a slight buff or an xp bonus for a while, or just gold would be good enough. Just something that when conflict arises, the player of the character thinks, "I might as well go - even if I lose I might earn ".

Like I said before, risk vs reward is seriously out of whack. People, espeically new people, need something to motivate them to participate in PvP. I would guess that 90% of skills are geared towards PvP - it's what people spend their money on. They should have a good reason to participate in it.

But don't think I'm saying you need to create a new quest or event or a 'game', where the object is to earn these rewards. The object should be 100% in-character: you want to capture an area, kill a high level mob, or destroy constructs. The rewards a by-product of participating in PvP - something to make the player feel good that they spend their time learning and participating in Lusternia.

The problem with pk rewards is people will start farming for those rewards, assuming the rewards are decent.

XP buffs or anything of the like just can't happen if you want pk to not turn into a plague on non combatants and anyone below top tier. People would stop by planes, kick a demon just to pick off some people for the reward than vanish. Yes, that happens now, but imagine if there was an actual reward in place.

I feel like you didn't read what me, Xenthos, Shamarah, Krellan, etc, etc, wrote before writing that. :\\

I didn't read Shamarah's. I was responding to your post, in particular.

Dearest Talan, you were most certainly not around for when Glomdoring was really down. That was practically Glomdoring's golden age to boot. Nothing boosted morale quite like a cohesive group that didn't have time for drama because they were too busy fighting to keep the nexus out of the negatives.

Oh gods.... the Spiritsingers.... STILL

Ahem on another note.

Nexus world has alot of pros too!
-They do something people actually like (covens, garb, archlich) and have grown accustomed to
-They do/did encourage more combat
-Lots of interesting mechanics

Cons
-Constructs die too easily
-When they do die etc its for a LONG time
-Tedious to focus all the time

Maybe make it possible to kill 1 during a major if you have a really good group and focus intently on the raid itself, aka what glomwilde did but only having time to kill 1.5 or so in a weakening. Make spheres worth less gold and cost less particles and make miniweakenings alot rarer.



As a Nihilist I know about pacts and my god were Demon Lord raids utterly stupid.

-Remove the pacts loss, increase the eq or something as you feel no bond to the Demon Lords.
-Dont make them lose symbol, reduce its dmp and pvp damage if you want flavour.
-Fae from avatars slow down their timers if avatars are dead.

-Flavour extra: If you empower a certain number of demons maybe you you get a boost to your symbol!

You're right. I didn't have to deal with that, thankfully. Would it be okay if I have opinions anyway though?

-derail-






/derail

Well this thread grew while I was out.

-4 way brawls will probably never happen (short of big RP/mechanical changes) because of the reasons Akui stated. It'd be nice, but ultimately improbable. I personally still subscribe to the 'it's because we have an even number of orgs and not an odd one' theory myself.

-I agree with increasing the personal gain for conflict and lessening some of the group gain. More karma/xp for killing enemies in home territory is a good one, as well as increased gold drops for killing smobs. I'm not fond of the idea of increasing pk xp in general; only in special circumstances plz. Again, remove the pacting/fae issues, but if you're gonna make it 'hurt' make them more costly or something at the most. I guess more avenues for 'optional' conflict like order wars and domoths wouldn't hurt either.

-It is impossible to run a nexus out of power, don't even worry about that. The most you can do is make it so an org's nexus gains power less quickly than yours, which in turn leads to less ascendants/etc/etc.

-Don't remove xp loss on death. I'd be down for a power move or something that lets you keep your defenses upon death though. P.S. Make ascendants benefit from conglut somehow.

-I think many people defend for one of two reasons: they either like fighting or they do it out of IC/OOC obligation. It's not exclusively one or the other IMO.

-I actually think a clear victory objective for 'normal' raids would also be nice. Like say, if you (the raiders) drain a nexus of x power in a certain amount of time (or drain x xp off defenders, etc etc), Something Bad ™ happens to the org but in turn, super defenses get raised that effectively ends the raid. I guess you could see it as a surrender mechanic or something. I think this will discourage 4+ hour lame raids as well gives the raiders a clear objective besides 'camp eth/nil/celestia, bash people, repeat, leave when shrines/discretionaries pop up), at the very least. You can't say that doesn't happen cause it just did a couple of days ago, heh.

More thoughts as they come.

I'm in too much pain and too tired to reread everything everyones wrote so here's my thoughts, even if it's been repeated..

I'm soso on this issue for the following reasons.

I play this game primarily for the conflict. The way the pvp involves the pve, politics, the cities, and forces most of the players to get involved.

I think things should be maintained on a balance but also allow us to continue our raiding...my best times in this game were when raiding. I admit getting beat down brutally due to current overpowered skills and losing a ton of crap due to the most op alliance in the game. (Everyone knows I favor druid/Monies over mages!) Is a bit disheartening but....kicking their rear in return is sooo much fun.

Allowing us to do this (which currently is EXTREMELY difficult) would make things better.

The force of the alliance I think was a bad move, and if I was still a seren I'd be throwing a fit based 'We've fought for so many years and now we gotta ally!' but I guess since I don't feel the same about Mag, it's because I don't like anyone in Glom.

I am partial on the removing of nexus worlds. Neither for nor against, cause I don't really care about the buffs. The power loss/gain for removing these things is way too extreme I think though.

Ethereal conflict doesn't need to be removed, just rebalanced somehow. I remember in the old days that guards could be placed everywhere and that archway wasn't up.


The thing you have to consider is by removing these random conflicts how many players are you going to lose, if you don't keep it interesting? Creating a new conflict, or improving on the current ones may be better. I can't offer any ideas cause I'm too friggin tired right now but find a way to balance it moreover then removing it.


Anyone know where I stand? I don't....







Edit: I agree with Sojiro's above post about the entire 'Objective'. Admittingly I love just camping there and going Ha! You're dead! again and again but a clear objective other then....we're bored lets go.

I personally don't feel that reducing conflict will help anything at all. I do think however that reducing the penalties of some of the afflicted organizations would help, that way they aren't going to feel utterly demoralized because half their skills have been taken away or all their power has been drained. For example, I think that the loss of pacts/deepbonds from the death of supernal/demons should be taken away, however I think that the quest to return these super mobs should still remain as that encourages player co-operation and interaction, RP and also gives you something to do.

Personally I think that we shouldn't remove constructs, perhaps remove the construct weakenings and battles, remove the skills that the constructs provide that aid combat and replace it with more organizational benefits. Also make it so to get the constructs, the organization needs to complete a quest rather than just raising it and keeping an upkeep. Perhaps for example for the Serenwilde construct the Ellindel Tree, you'd need to get a seed, and do some different things, help it grow, water it, gather items for and perform a ritual at a full moon and then the construct is there active and lasts for a certain time frame, 2-3 IG years perhaps.

Moon Altar - Doesn't really effect combat directly IMO so isn't necessary of a change.
Ellindel's Tree - Remove the free discretionary benefit and replace with something that could benefit the commune like, increased herb growth in the Serenwilde for a certain time period, controls weather conditions negating hibernation for the duration of the quest time frame, boost power gained from Pixies or other power quests or something to that effect.
Silver Hornbeam Tree - Isn't really combat beneficial can stay the same

Open a new forest as well if you're going to make conflicts like these....a neutral one. Unless there's a prime one that I can't think of?

Edit: Not a commune, an area.

Completely forgot about Order Wars. I think those could be revamped. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I feel as though most orders have less than 10 people actively in them. So, seeing as only the Divine or appointed Warlord can declare Order wars, this system may be used as often has construct/colossus battles.

However, I do like the Order wars and would recommend the two following things:
1) Make them happen more often or provide more means of starting them
2) All Order members will conglutinate in their respective god realm as well as members of allied orders.

I could care less either away for clear victory objectives during normal raids. I raid normally either to kill or for a fight. As lame as a 4 hour+ raid may sound, it's not everyday or even every other day. It's not even once a week. So I'm really cool for it. Things like this encourage people to strike back and encourage people who want to strike back to learn more combat. I've already started to see this.

On another note, I think it would be interesting if Avenger was done away with. Champions, protectors, and security may actually have a purpose and reason to learn how to fight other than just filling positions and using discretionary! Just a thought, it'd be interesting to see how that would go for a week or a month.

I wish Sarra just wanted to fill security and protector positions.

I do think, that God realms increased conflict simply because it's another place to raid. I definitely want conglutinate for order members.

I am up for MORE conflict!

I also forgot about Order Wars...that's another great venue where conflict could be generated in a constructive way. Both of the things Krellan stated are good ideas for that.



Then that must have been the only line you read. You can't "farm" the system because it's entirely up to people if they choose to fight you or not. People don't respawn and just stand there waiting for you to kill them like mobs do.

Also, probably the best reason that you're wrong about this is something that (Shamarah I think) said: other IRE's give a lot of xp for killing people, and also have a much less strict pk-control system (Imperian doesn't even have one at all), but they don't have problems with people trying to 'farm' other people for rewards. It's just not possible to farm people. Running away is a really, really easy thing to do, unless you get very unlucky. Also, I think you're forgetting that off prime areas are open PK, you should expect to be killed there if you go there.

Also, it may be difficult to understand at first, but the type of system I was describing rewards players more for participating in PvP and conflict quests/mechanics than it does for killing any one person - although the rewards for killing any one person should be increased from what they are now. As it stands, killing another player, unless they are a total newb (which is in bad taste anyway), is a very difficult thing to do. And you can only lose things by doing it. You either die and lose defs, resources, and xp, or you win and just lose the first one. You don't gain anything.

And Sojiro stated that he would prefer xp loss to remain on death, but for defenses to stay up or something if you die in a PvP zone. That would be fine - there needs to be some penalty for dying in PvP, but it needs to be much less severe than it is now.

Well, I do have to say, I was surprised thatthere were only two choices.

The basic issue is the enjoyment of the game. Many people enjoy the conflict, and it keeps people from being stagnant. However, others do not want the conflict experience and feel forced to fight, or dislike when they lose random powers or abilities due to other people's machinations.

I am not a big combatant, but I love how the political scene on Lusternia remains active and competitive. However, it is annoying at times, and not all players want to be involved.

So a third solution: Add a neutral faction. Bring back Ackleberry (or one of the other missing nexii)

Make it so the new org cannot be as weakened by conflict, but on the same token is unable to benefit as much from the conflict. Of course, keeping such an org non-stagnant might require alot of management for culture and such. Maybe bring back Hallifax as a research org, (thought keeping IC research and articsanal stuff going can be a massive admin task)

Adding a neutral org is pretty much like adding a new village (although not entirely), that's all I'd like to say.

Celest wants to purify, Glomdoring wants to spread the Wyrd, Magnagora wants to infect with the taint and Serenwilde... I don't know, they want more flowers, or something.

Adding a neutral organization wouldn't really work if the various ethos of the other nations remain the same.

Serenwilde wants the entire Lusternia to heal.