Chade2009-06-06 17:48:22
QUOTE (Estarra @ Jun 6 2009, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The masterarmour wouldn't vanish but numbers would adjust to fit the new rules.
Your welcome to suggest other caps!
Your welcome to suggest other caps!
If you're not going to touch the formulas, leave speed at 280, I can't really see a way of making prec/damage weapons more effective. Unless you do something like Desi suggested.
Estarra2009-06-06 17:49:36
QUOTE (Isuka @ Jun 6 2009, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm just going to state this bluntly: That does not seem like much of a fix. We have collectively asked you to make it so that forging is not incredibly random, and you've fired back with,
To be perfectly honest I do not understand why warriors need to have a stat variety in individual weapon types, period. I would be perfectly content to see all Katanas given the exact same stats, and all klangaxes, and hammers, and so forth. Having multiple types of weapons gives you a variety. I have always thought it absurd that warriors (and now monks to a lesser degree) are the only class in the game that doesn't have a fixed stat for their damage output (that I know of. Am I wrong?). This would put warriors on a level playing field with eachother, and make combat less about, "My weapon is more legendary than your weapon."
As per miss rate: there are already an insane amount of things that stop you from hitting with a weapon. Magical shields, rebounding, stances, parry, trueshield, evasion and natural miss rates already apply to warriors. Noone else has this staggering amount of things working against them, please do not add to it. Besides, a transcendent knight should not be flailing around blindly with his weapon.
Moving on, please do not take away what little business warriors get already by handing the skill set over to monks. Please, make monks -less- like warriors, not more.
To be perfectly honest I do not understand why warriors need to have a stat variety in individual weapon types, period. I would be perfectly content to see all Katanas given the exact same stats, and all klangaxes, and hammers, and so forth. Having multiple types of weapons gives you a variety. I have always thought it absurd that warriors (and now monks to a lesser degree) are the only class in the game that doesn't have a fixed stat for their damage output (that I know of. Am I wrong?). This would put warriors on a level playing field with eachother, and make combat less about, "My weapon is more legendary than your weapon."
As per miss rate: there are already an insane amount of things that stop you from hitting with a weapon. Magical shields, rebounding, stances, parry, trueshield, evasion and natural miss rates already apply to warriors. Noone else has this staggering amount of things working against them, please do not add to it. Besides, a transcendent knight should not be flailing around blindly with his weapon.
Moving on, please do not take away what little business warriors get already by handing the skill set over to monks. Please, make monks -less- like warriors, not more.
The proposal would allow warriors to have any numbers they want (at a cost) so it's really not random. Anyway, I don't think people really want weapons to all have exactly the same numbers. Or maybe people do? Would make our life easier!
Chade2009-06-06 17:50:45
Weapons with exactly the same stats is a really good idea. Would be a hell of a lot easier to balance everything around and take the arduousness out of forging. I'm all for it.
Vionne2009-06-06 17:51:25
QUOTE (Estarra @ Jun 6 2009, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyway, I don't think people really want weapons to all have exactly the same numbers. Or maybe people do?
A significant amount of posts have said "Why can't you just give our offense the same stats like the other classes have" haven't they?
Casilu2009-06-06 17:52:20
The way this change sounds, I have to agree with Isuka, it sounds like you'll be making some problems worse. If this change goes through, it will make it far harder for warriors of any spec without runes to compete, Demigod included.
Estarra2009-06-06 17:52:53
So I'm hearing, all things being equal, keep the caps at 280.
Vathael2009-06-06 17:52:55
QUOTE (Estarra @ Jun 6 2009, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Define a 'bashing weapon'?
Testing with Xenthos:
Xenthos to me: 265 wounds 235/210 17 str 3 seconds
Xenthos to me: 172 wounds 57/108/285 17 str 2.4 seconds
Me to Xenthos: 360 wounds 99/179/320 22 str 2.3 seconds
Bashing weapons being normal max speed weapons.
EDIT: Xenthos is a Shadowlord Faeling, I am a Spec Krokani.
Xenthos2009-06-06 17:53:32
QUOTE (Estarra @ Jun 6 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Regarding master armour, if we make the change, then we would have to change how it is for the armour that exists. I'm not sure how we could in good conscience do otherwise and let others have armour better than everyone else's just because they lucked into getting forging earlier. Sorry!
That's understandable, but will you be doing anything for people who paid for these things specifically because of the assurances they were given? Just... destroying it after a 150-credit-investment is pretty rough.
Isuka2009-06-06 17:53:32
I'd also just like to add my voice that making precision worth something again would be a very, very good thing for warrior combat if you're going to keep stat ranges the way they are. Right now it seems essentially worthless.
Unknown2009-06-06 17:54:25
QUOTE (Estarra @ Jun 6 2009, 06:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The proposal would allow warriors to have any numbers they want (at a cost) so it's really not random. Anyway, I don't think people really want weapons to all have exactly the same numbers. Or maybe people do? Would make our life easier!
That wouldn't be the end of the world. Please realize that many weapons have stats that are so close to one another now, that they are, for all practical purposes, identical already.
As for the masterarmour issue- Anyone with solid masterplate stands to lose investment of time. I'm not sure where people are spending these credits for master armour, as you can only make your own. I've sunk over 3000 credits into a pair of two handed swords. But these changes need to be made. We can't grandfather in our old armours, that would be incredibly unfair to new players. It needs to be a clean transition to actually fix anything.
Xenthos2009-06-06 17:54:50
QUOTE (Estarra @ Jun 6 2009, 01:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So I'm hearing, all things being equal, keep the caps at 280.
The caps are not 280.
The caps are: 180 damage, 235 precision, 280 speed.
Estarra2009-06-06 17:55:02
QUOTE (vionne @ Jun 6 2009, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A significant amount of posts have said "Why can't you just give our offense the same stats like the other classes have" haven't they?
It seems to me that one of the interesting things about warriors is allowing them the option to have different types of weapons so they can choose different strategies. I don't know why you'd want to lose that.
Chade2009-06-06 17:55:26
QUOTE (Isuka @ Jun 6 2009, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd also just like to add my voice that making precision worth something again would be a very, very good thing for warrior combat if you're going to keep stat ranges the way they are. Right now it seems essentially worthless.
Yeah, would be nice to use weapons other than rapiers again, changing the formulas to make Prec/Damage worth more also gets my vote.
Desitrus2009-06-06 17:55:41
People already forge for goals, I can rattle the old stat ones off by memory. x/420/240, 350/x/180, x/x/280, x/200/220, etc. People don't get different numbers because they like it, they just accept .0002% variance or whatnot. Personally I think the proposed method is fine. You people realize that right now you are literally forging for something that has a .001% chance of popping up. You could widen that range to 10% and then from there spend 5k to fix it. Sounds fan-effin-tastic to me.
Caps notwithstanding, if the weapon caps and formulas do end up changing, instead of a messy refund situation, how about you do a one time stat-adjustment for people who have weapons already-runed under old stat caps/assumptions/values. It might take about 10 minutes per player but if they all submit a message it shouldn't take too long at all.
Yes, I was one of the people testing stances. I can confirm that tiny tweaks did things like cause me to die instantly or do 2 damage, the equations are somewhat intertwined in a complex manner I'd imagine.
Caps notwithstanding, if the weapon caps and formulas do end up changing, instead of a messy refund situation, how about you do a one time stat-adjustment for people who have weapons already-runed under old stat caps/assumptions/values. It might take about 10 minutes per player but if they all submit a message it shouldn't take too long at all.
Yes, I was one of the people testing stances. I can confirm that tiny tweaks did things like cause me to die instantly or do 2 damage, the equations are somewhat intertwined in a complex manner I'd imagine.
Estarra2009-06-06 17:56:03
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Jun 6 2009, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The caps are not 280.
The caps are: 180 damage, 235 precision, 280 speed.
The caps are: 180 damage, 235 precision, 280 speed.
I stand corrected!
Estarra2009-06-06 17:57:05
QUOTE (Desitrus @ Jun 6 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Caps notwithstanding, if the weapon caps and formulas do end up changing, instead of a messy refund situation, how about you do a one time stat-adjustment for people who have weapons already-runed under old stat caps/assumptions/values. It might take about 10 minutes per player but if they all submit a message it shouldn't take too long at all.
You can always have a forger readjust your stats so not sure why it would be messy.
Chade2009-06-06 17:57:19
QUOTE (Estarra @ Jun 6 2009, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It seems to me that one of the interesting things about warriors is allowing them the option to have different types of weapons so they can choose different strategies. I don't know why you'd want to lose that.
Because currently only one strategy works. Every warrior fights with Rapiers/Hammers/Katanas/Klangaxes and nothing else, they all go for 280 speed and then depending on if they've got runes they go for high prec or high damage. It would be much better in my opinion to make Scimitars and Broadswords worth using again and just give base stats to them.
Isuka2009-06-06 17:58:03
I have personally seen many posts from different people suggesting that giving all weapons the same stats would be a good, or at least tolerable, thing.
Maybe we should poll it, because that seems like the best (and also easiest) fix to me.
Maybe we should poll it, because that seems like the best (and also easiest) fix to me.
Estarra2009-06-06 17:58:17
QUOTE (Chade @ Jun 6 2009, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because currently only one strategy works. Every warrior fights with Rapiers/Hammers/Katanas/Klangaxes and nothing else, they all go for 280 speed and then depending on if they've got runes they go for high prec or high damage. It would be much better in my opinion to make Scimitars and Broadswords worth using again and just give base stats to them.
So what's your proposal for base stats for these weapons?
Ronny2009-06-06 17:58:41
I'm concerned with capping the stats at 463 for all forged goods. As it stands, you can spend a weapon that has a combined stat over that range if you can't afford artifact runes so you don't fall too far behind in wounds output (damage output of artifact weapons will always be far greater given the way elemental runes work now). Assume I'm trying to forge a low damage, high precision and maximum speed katana. I currently hold a 365 precision katana and there has been at least one weapon with 395 precision. If a warrior attaches weaponrunes, the katana has to be at a base of roughly 330 precision. They still end up ahead since two +10 stat runes and 10+ wounders (Both are level 2) add more to wounding than the extra precision on normal weapons will ever add but the gap can only get wider with this change.
Another concern is that if the new stats are going to be scaled to 180, stat runes are going to make an even bigger difference in speed/damage/wounds. 15 speed out of a max of 180 compared to 15 speed out of 280.
EDIT: Thread has moved on
Another concern is that if the new stats are going to be scaled to 180, stat runes are going to make an even bigger difference in speed/damage/wounds. 15 speed out of a max of 180 compared to 15 speed out of 280.
EDIT: Thread has moved on