Too late! I already rawrlinked. But some Xiels anyway.

As a designer, not a forger, I say

No. I'm the person who'll be standing over your bed tonight as you sleep.

So let me get this straight:

An x/430+/250+ katana just got a lot easier to make - i dont need to forge for like a zillion days?

As long as the statistics fall within the boundaries set for one or two-handed weapons, yep. Hooray.

Correct. In fact, less than an hour.

With today's fixes, things seem wonderful. The most mind numbing issues have been addressed, and we can even use some of the often-wonderful-but-always-neglected non-metal commodity designs. I'm extremely happy all around! Thank you!


The only remaining issue to me, at least, as far as knight stuff goes, is the minimum temper statistics for various weapons. Because "speed" weapons (katanas/rapiers/hammers/klangaxes) have lower minimums than anything else for both damage and precision, and everyone wants speed anyway, they're inherently the best thing going- because you can take more out of your lowest statistic, and pile it on to what you want.

Thus, everyone will still use speed-type weapons (Edit- not because they are fast, but merely because they can be more heavily specialized in any direction than any of the other types, due to lower minimum temper values!) which is a shame. It would be nice to have universal stat floors for all weapons (perhaps just apply the speed weapon stat floors to damage/precision/balanced weapon types), which would allow for far more variety in the weapons people are toting around.

Perhaps more importantly, at the moment a person with, say, artifacted flails has a substantial amount of wasted stats compared to a person with identically artifacted hammers, due to having more potential forging stats bound up in the statistic they are minimizing than they would if they had hammers.

A universal floor would fix this investment problem, as well as give us the opportunity to confidently use all the great scimitars, morningstars, waraxes, greatswords, claymores, bastard swords, long swords, battle axes, great axes, and broadswords which, without stat floors, are inherently sub optimal to the "speed" type weapons which can be forged to much more specialized degrees.

Finally, this would basically ensure that a large credit investment on artifact runes wouldn't be wasted by some mechanical change in the future by making sure that all knight weapon types are playing on the same board.

Right now my Nekotai monks are reporting having difficulty finding a forger who will currently commit to making kata weapons.

One of the comments from a forger was "Let's wait a half-year to see if kata weapons are brought under the current system." I don't blame that forger. Having a taste of the new system, who would want to return to the old way? Though, I have about four or five new and newly returning monks who are fighting barehanded because of this mentality.

I don't mention this to complain at all. Actually, I am quite grateful for the changes, and know that the Admins are doing their best to work towards an equitable solution. However, I wanted to shed light on the outcome of changing warrior weapons without addressing kata weapons.

Anyway, I know that monks will never ever ever ever be given forging. However, I find it challenged having to wait on another class to get a weapon which will allow my guild basic level of entry into combat. Hopefully the new fix will bring more forgers back into Glomdoring.

I wouldn't be so sure about monks never getting forging, that was actually one idea Estarra was considering, I think...

I suppose a "different" version of forging like old elemental/cosmic enchantment might make up for the lack of specialised tradeskill we have compared to every other class.

You know... I was thinking. It would be cool if a monk spec forger could psionically enhance their weapons with, uh... dunno, some commodity as the Monk flavour of Dwarven forging runes.

However, you may want to file that under "cool" and not "good" ideas. Dunno if it is RP'ly feasible (or desirable). Guess that is to assume all monks can tap into their psionic potential... though it creates a sticky RP situation for those monks who aren't psymet/ keph/ illithoid.

Fun enough to speculate about though... Anyway, I am predicting it will be quite a while if and when monks get forging. That's just me (and the opinion of our guild champ / envoy).

What Akui said.

Example:

My current bashing weapons are:

115/85/280
115/85/280

Combat Weapons:

33/167/280
33/167/280

Both sets are rapiers, I asked Akui to try and forge me some 280 speed Longswords with the maximum damage she could muster, due to the minimum precision on a Longsword being 102 the best set she could achieve was 98/102/280 - obviously inferior bashing weapons to the 115/85/280, similar things happen when you look at precision too.

It would be really nice if all weapons had the same minimum stat caps as speed weapons, for one handers that's 33 damage 85 precision. Otherwise you're still going to see people always fighting with speed weapons.

I'm still wondering what the plan is to make damage and precision matter again, too.

For the record:





Since the speed class weapons have lower minimums, the undesirable statistic for a given weapon can be dropped lower than any other weapon type, freeing up more points to assign to desired statistics- which is exactly why when we made Chade's swords, above, he's using rapiers. He initially wanted to be unique and interesting, and use longswords, but the lower stat mins on rapiers made that a completely irrational choice.

Rather than provide uniqueness, the current set up just ensures uniformity. Everyone trying to have the best weapons that they can will invariably take weapons from the speed class, and temper them to the desired effect.

Whether or not other stats are viable isn't a forging issue, and I'm not concerened at all about it, and do not want to confuse this issue as anything other than a strictly forging issue.

Uniform stats across all weapon classes would resolve this, permanently, irrespective of any future changes to the underlying mechanics. It would give knights the chance to be more unique and creative in selecting what weapons they want to use (rather than every knight in the basin running around with the same weapon appearances), and it would signal to potential artifact buyers that their large credit investment wouldn't go to waste, as they would be able to adjust any weapon a changing set of circumstances, bound only by their choices of specialization and style.

Well good luck with that.



Eh. I can kind of understand why now. Rapiers are for speed. Speed is the most important stat. Therefore, rapiers are the most important.

The mechanics > uniqueness mantra probably applies here as usual. Otherwise we can just go back to complaining that leather/chain/miniatures was not addressed again.

Somewhere down the line, it would be cool if the way the stats themselves work were changed. I still think making damage and precision into damage-per-second and wounds-per-second stats, then increasing the benefit of the speed stat to make it worthwhile for the proc rate alone would go a long way, plus be easier to balance or rebalance down the road, since you're only juggling the benefits of one weapon stat and strength. You can plot that with the lovely y=mx+b we learned back in junior high and get the exact results you want.

Personally, I think it makes more sense to put Maximum caps on each weapon. For example, a long sword shouldn't be able to go faster than say erm, 220 or 200. That way, the fastest katana is still always faster than the fastest claymore. And a katana should never be able to have damage above say erm 100.

I must not be making myself clear. This really doesn't have anything at all to do with speed being the best stat, apart from that nobody will ever want to minimize speed. It's all about that the weapons that happen to be speed weapons all have substantially lower floors than the other types.

The armour comparison doesn't work at all either. It's not like I'm asking for tridents to be made into viable weapons or something crazy/revolutionary like that. Putting floors in would be consistent and logical in the face of the universal stat maximums. Putting floors in would also keep people from making thousand-credit "mistakes" if the mechanics ever changed- which was a big part of the reason artifact runed weapons are temperable as it is.





All this sort of uniqueness does is ensure uniformity because nobody will ever use anything other than the weapon that leans on the current favorite stat, or failing that, the weapon class that currently has the least awful caps. The uniform caps were the way to go with this thing, all I'm asking is that the same logic and principles be applied to the floors.

What, the fact that people are using rapiers -is- because of speed being the most important stat. That's how Lusternia currently works. Rapiers are for speed, so people use rapiers. I do not recall anyone ever saying 'Well I use rapiers because they have such low floors, hell yeah!'

The armour comparison works because you're asking for people to be able to use broadswords/other weapons for speed instead of using the weapon that's built precisely -for- speed. You're asking to be the unique speedy broadsword in the faceless mass of rapiers.

I find Daganev's last post more inline with my kind of thinking.

His point is that you can make a 280 speed flail. However the damage will be worse than the 280 speed hammer, because precision on a flail can't go as low as precision on a hammer. Therefore it is in your best interest to make all your weapons be hammers, so that you have the most variety available to you. You can also make 180 damage hammers if you want. All it costs is steel/power.

Some examples:

Hammer with most possible damage:
180/85/198
fastest possible Flail with same damage:
180/96/187

Hammer with most possible precision:
35/235/193
fastest possible morning star with same precision:
65/235/163

Notice how the hammers always come out better?

The armour comparsion would only work if I were saying something like "non-masterwork weaponry should be as good as masterwork weaponry".

People use rapiers because, prior to this change, they were the only ones that had a realistic chance of getting higher echelon speed stats. However, we now have universal statistical caps- there is no longer any weapon that is build precisely for maximum speed, because all weapons are exactly the same in terms of their maximum potential values.

This is a good thing. This sort of uniformity means that people can use a weapon that they like to achieve what is mechanically important. It allows people to use all the great designs that aren't a rapier/katana/hammer/klangaxe. It lets people buy credits for weapon runes with the secure knowledge that their investment won't be rendered a wasteful, obselete toy, save by choice that they make for themselves (to switch weapon specs/archetypes). The only thing still constraining this is the weapon stat floors.

The only difference that still exists between weapon classes is the variance in the minimum values they can be tempered to. There's no real good reason for there to be diverse stat floors, because all that really accomplishes is that there will always be a "best" weapon type that everyone uses.