Slightly off topic, but I don't really know anything about weapons and how their stats really work.

Is a high speed weapon always the best choice? What if you were playing a really slow race, like a Tae'dae (level 3 slower balance). Would it still be best to get a fast weapon, or to play to your current strengths and get the most damaging weapon possible?

Again, the most damaging Hammer is better than the most damaging Flail.

At this point in time, there is no reason to forge anything other than a hammer. Any hammer you can make, will always be better than any Flail/morningstar etc.

Okay I think my point is unclear - why would you want to make a weapon something that it's not? If you want to focus on precision, don't use rapiers, use a scimitar. That's all.

The rapier superiority probably has nothing to do with this particular argument, but I do understand that I might have tried to throw all my thoughts out at once.

P.S. Daganev's responses seem more clear to me for some reason.

Well, even so...is it always best to go for a high speed hammer, or would a high-damage hammer be viable?

I'm not really asking which weapon is best, I'm asking if speed is always the best stat, no matter your race.

Daganev distilled it very nicely in his last two responses. I keep getting caught up in all the experiment info I was wading through.

If you did that. You would be shooting yourself in the foot.

That is his point.

I want good precision. Which weapon should I forge? Answer: Rapiers/Hammers etc.

That's a completely unrelated question, the answer to which is a function of your strength score. If it's really high (21+ if I recall correctly), max speed, put the rest into whatever you're using the weapon for. If it's not so high, drag speed down a smidge, and put more into whatever you're using the weapon for.

For bashing, max speed regardless of what your strength score is.

Ahh, in theory speed isn't always best. Like if you are fighting a bunch of people with little armor, and no hoods, and low level, it might be better to get the 2-hit kill with damage. But when fighting other top tier opponents, I think speed is always best. (from what I've read here on the forums)

edit: Nevermind, ignore me.

All right, I think I understand now. I still don't think I agree that having the same floors is the ideal solution though. It looks like it'd be much better in the longrun if something like Xavius' idea or the classic damage/precision assessment/readjustment happened, both of which aren't really within the scope of forging IMO.

I think having the same floors will be good for users, who will be allowed to have any weapon they want, regardless of mechanics. But it will be bad for Estarrra who wants different weapon types being used for different situations.

Personally, I think removing "universal" caps, and making caps specific to weapons will fix the problem in the short term. And then weapon rebalacing in general, can be used to fix the problem in the long term. Hammers = speed, Morningstar = precision Flail = Damage, Mace = balance of all three, will always stay constant. It's just the reality of getting the weapons to that situation which is difficult.



edit: Btw... Has anyone tried a 180/235/148 weapon yet?

We already have the ceilings, so that ship has sailed. A universal floor would be a simple and consistent solution to rapiers/katanas/hammers/klangaxes being better than everything, for everything.

While in an ideal world, I would like to see different weapon classes have different stats that gave different benefits, meaning people would face real decisions over what to use. However, I think it is unrealistic to expect that sort of fine-tuned balancing to be possible, let alone worth the massive effort- so the result is, even if mechanics change, there's going to be one strictly "best" weapon configuration.

A universal floor just simplifies this. Pick what you want to use, forge it how you want to use it. Slap artifact runes on it if you like- you'll be able to temper and adapt if mechanics change without fear that you picked the wrong weapon.

Right now, it's "Pick hammer/rapier/katana/klangaxe. Forge it however you want to use it. Doesn't matter what you're using it for, it's the best/only rational choice."

Umm, I think it's just as easy to make stat caps per weapon, as it is to make unviersal floors.

But lets not derail my new question: Anyone tried a 180/235/148 weapon? (whats the balance time on that?)

I doubt this is true and would like numbers to back it up.

Part of the reason that speed works out so well is that it has an exponential effect on percent increases, whereas damage and prec have a logarithmic effect.

Imaginary (but close by means of estimation) numbers for illustration:
You've got a 115/85/270 rapier and you're trying to decide where to put your last ten stat points. You built this up because you know that the effect of speed is greater than the effect of damage, but you're aiming for a damage weapon.

The effect of speed at the lower end is fairly minimal. Going from 100 -> 110 speed moved you from a 4.5 to a 4.4 second balance time, giving you a 2.2% damage increase. This got better, though. Going from 170 -> 180 speed (the old standard for damage weapons) gave you a 2.6% damage increase. Going from 260 -> 270 was 3.4%. Pretty good return for 10 stat points!

Weapon damage is, to simplify a bit, (base + damage modifer) * strength modifier, or possibly even (base * str) + damage, but the latter would be an oddity among Lusty formulas, so assume the first. I can't even pretend to estimate these numbers, but we know the scale of them just by reverse engineering the good warriors' posts. The strength modifier is itself logarithmic by design, but with a much sharper curve: at lower strength levels, it's pretty big, and at higher strength levels, it's pretty small. We also know that the base damage is relatively close to the 180 damage modifier by the way hunting rapiers weren't hitting for 60% less damage than broadswords (but min-damage prec rapiers were).

Anyways, even working with what we do know, the difference between 100 -> 110 damage gave you 10% more in the modifier, but 170 -> 180 only gives you 5.6% more.

Here's where the illustration gets trickier, since I don't have enough data to even BS the damage numbers. If speed was a worthwhile investment from 100 -> 270, then 270 -> 280 are the most valuable points on your weapon. For damage, the most valuable points were 40 -> 50, and it's been a diminishing return ever since. There is absolutely no number that can be plugged into the strength modifier to change that basic principle. If the number in the strength modifier was unreasonably huge, though, the weapons you would be seeing would be 180/85/215, because damage would have been worth more all along.

EDIT: Of course, if someone would like to provide a detailed data set against undeffed, unarmored targets, there are plenty of people here (myself included) who could parse those formulas in a jiffy.

I'm just going off what multiple demigod knights have said and done multiple times. If they're a demigod, they max speed, dump the rest in precision or damage. If they aren't, the logic is, drop speed to 240/250 ish, and put the rest in precision, because as poor as the stat is, you need that extra bit to make up for the fact that you don't have demiwarrior strength.

I rather love the forging changes. I am oh so tempted to buy the mallet.

For a possibly unrelated request, does anyone have a list of the stat minimums for each weapon type? (one-handed will do)

I just listed them a few posts back.

Ah, must have missed that one. Thanks!

Well if it isn't my shield maker.

I might need a new one.

And here I thought I was labor-forging free. *runs away*

More directly related to the change, why does downtempering have a chance to reduce the decay time?