Ok, so.. the past week this person has been making novices and causing problems in Celest.. I'm not positive it's an alt, but I'm sure it's the same person. Should I feel bad for wanting to just run him out on a pole everytime I encounter one of his characters? All of his characters act the same way - like a flaming and he is very disrespectful and badmouths everyone that doesn't see things his way.

I feel bad though.


Oh and I've noticed a lot of newbies don't even know how to talk on CGT, so might want to start telling them!

Best way to deal with this is ISSUE one of his characters, let the admin know in the issue who the other suspected alts are, and be detailed about what he is doing. Be specific about everything each character is doing.

I know that most of the people who give intros to novices mention how to use CGT, but it kind of gets lost in the text. I know my greetings can be kind of long, but I feel that if I make it too simple the novice may think I am going to leave them there. Oh, and I usually don't greet novices from other guilds because I feel that it's disrespectful to the guild and the novice when you teach someone and they later find out they won't get to know you.
Edit: Instrusive wasn't the word I wanted to use

It's been mentioned but I was told this was by design, to get newbies to talk to people.



Actually... ya know... Admin... not all newbie stuff. Undersecs get only powers relating to novices, however I do not believe I have been in any guild that has not (atleast at some point in its history) had secretaries that are strictly not novice aides.

Moondancer coteries had one secretary per and only one of them had anything to do with novices.
Hartstone branches again one per, and none were novice level (one was recent graduates) this continued somewhat when the stones came in but nfi what they are doing now.
I think Spiritsingers might have had something similar and the Shofangi weren't fully organised before I left.

The defense to the stance that not all secretaries are novice helpers? Not all guild members are novices, there are other things that need to be done in the guild. Secretaries are visible guild officials who can assist with the running of advancement structures, rule enforcement, event running, etc. Sure, one of them might head up the undersecs as a head of novices but this is just another facet of the guild admin/master position that is being delegated.

So...just because someone is in charge of something other than novices, means they aren't supposed to help novices?

That makes absolutely no sense.

Disclaimer: I have a special hatred in my heart for the first hour or so of a novice's existence. I neither enjoy administering nor receiving guild novice intros and have been known to raid a village or run to Astral when a novice first arrived just to get out of the pre-collegium novice nonsense.

Anyways, I think the point that Shaddus is trying to make is that newbies in general have a different priority. While legislated novice coddling is and always will be BS, if a novice needs help with something specific, the burden falls on the nearest available socially presentable guild member regardless of rank or position, and someone needs to spend time interacting with guildmates at a level beyond sending a tell asking if the person is ok or barking an order, so that 1) the person finds friends, 2) the person gets a sense of investment in the guild, and 3) the person can get an idea of what to expect from guild life in general. It's better if it's more than one someone. It's much better if it's a leader.

@both: It's more that, there are actually some people who are good at what they do and but really just do not want to help novices. I would expect at least trying to get someone else to help, but it's also not fair to bar people from ever progressing to guild official if they deserve the position but don't want to interact with newbies or to fire someone who is good at their actual job because they aren't doing something else. (I haven't had an aqua so no real comment of the validity in this sitch, just a general statement)

Also if you state that anyone listed in the help scroll should be willing to help then this extends to include security, protectors and... the library position, which shaddus edited out of the copied text and his following statements supported the concept that only secretaries are expected to do this. To me atleast secretaries are the members who have worked hard enough that they are now doing work that the guild leaders don't have time for or physically can't (advancing people out of their normal log in times)

If Lawliet does not want to be assisting novices then they should be looking for someone who is around when they are being called on who could become an undersec if the issue is that there is no one else around. I would possibly lmao if it turns out Lawliet logs on when there is enough coverage because then it's actually not an issue.

I've have to say that where a lot of guilds lose me is hair-trigger "READ XHELPFILES" macro when you finally graduate the intro-quest. The reason being is that until you leave that quest, which can take a bit for the true newb, you're essentially in single-player bowling with the bumpers up. It's boring, and it's not engaging. To be met with practically automated responses.

I'm a bit of an alt-making machine, so I've seen that welcome process more times than I'd really like to remember. However, I can remember one very specific instance back from Aetolia when I had first started playing. I joined the guild/house, and got the usual "READ FILES!" junk. Then, one of the members, a known roleplayer, showed up a proceeded interview/grill me on my motives. My reasons weren't exactly quite aligned with the guild, but it gave a good chance to explain the right reasons. He then proceeded to beat me within an inch of my life and show off some of the cool tricks the class had, and pretty much just asked "So, that seem like something you want to do?"

Random bit: wonder if we could get it so that the Grace of Innonence allowed higher ranked guild members to beat you to 1 HP. Novices need to see what they can get; I think it makes them work harder.

We can do better!

Person: Follow me to the Nexus please.


Person: Do you want to know why I should be feared?

BRAND ENEMY

Yes, because IMHO everyone in the guild has a job if they have a position. Security work with guards/nexus powers/training to fight, protectors are the same to a lesser extent. Same with Sec/UnderSec, the position is there to deal with the parts of the guild the leaders shouldn't have to deal with, having more important things. Novices are a huge part of a guild, they are the life's blood of the members. No novices that seem to stick around = nothing new= stagnancy.

...fail.

Secretaries are there to do specific jobs, in some guilds this description does include assisting novices in others it does not. If you think that in guild secretaries should be dropping what they are doing to assist novices then this should extend to security as well because there is an equal likelyhood that they are sitting around doing nothing(unless the big spinner of pwnage is on your org).

seriously... nexus powers? "Oh noes I can't possibly help a novice because I need to go to (plane) and type a command"

Even if it sounds like I am downplaying the importance of novices, I still think they should come first. However, if someone is doing a good job in their duties as secretary not helping novices is not enough to fire them maybe talking to them, giving them extra duties perhaps someone who doesn't want to deal with newbs would be willing to follow up and perform advancements instead. It can be a bit more hands off, but advancement still helps to retain those novices you keep with by focusing on them by showing them that your guild does not stop caring. It doesn't matter how many novices you turn in to guild members that focus is wasted if they are left out in the dark immediately afterwards. Which unsurprisingly is why you tend to find people to look after various different levels.

Building people up into guild officials = more people to take care of newbies

As far as the issue of who is in charge of novices I've seen it pretty simply enough as if a undersec is around then they should be dealing with a novice. Especially if they are a teacher. After that it is a trickle down. Those who are teachers should be next in line. Then leaders though I'm sure guilds have their own things when it comes to leaders and novices. Then those who hold positions and are not leaders. And in the end it comes down to not being a dick. If a undersec is around and a novice needs help then they should be taking care of them. That is one of their main roles. But if no one is really around for it then throw the new person a bone and help them out. Even if you hate it, just grin and bear it for a bit to help out a new person. When you were new I bet someone did that for you.

I'm not saying Secretaries have to "drop what they are doing and help novices", but SOMEONE has to help the novices.



And I'm not saying Security is exempt, but if there are secretaries/under secs, I think they should help the novices before the security/protectors get called for it.


I agree with this part.

It depends on guild structure.

If there is a structure of teachers as undersecs and a secretary overseeing them, then:

Teachers
Overseer
Guild officials unless otherwise occupied
Guild Leadership
Guild Members

Though this sort of organisation could have situations where undersecs are not novice helpers (the position could be used just to mark people working under the groups secretary while also allowing them to function as backup.) In which case teachers should be made college teachers to differentiate.

It's interesting in a large enough guild because everyone could have similar advancements but work in different groups because after a certain level you could have players who are like... "The Master of Histories" because of their achievements in their group/field and taking over after they retire would be a cool feeling.

/tangent

Also there was no mention that Lawliet wouldn't help I think, just that "annoyed" feeling and working on not ignoring them.

Just to add to that, I feel bad mentioning Lawliet's name - she was never unhelpful or refused to help, it was purely based on something she said about frustrations with novices earlier in this thread and how I did not want to be that annoying novice.

lawliet didn't mean she WOULDN'T help with novices, she's just among the many who are burnt out from training the out of the portal novices, and all that jazz (or so I get). It does tend to get annoy when you put time and effort into helping someone get sort of settled into their new "life" and then suddenly never see them again, or to see them on the Dormant Gmembers list. :\\ It gets frustrating that you've put the time into helping that person and then you more or less get no reward from it because you'll probably never see that character again. In some ways, I feel, its a slap in the face to say you didn't do a good enough job to keep the person playing. Maybe it wasn't your fault, but you were the first person to interact with them. Maybe that feel is just me.

It's also important to remember that it is not the sole responsibility of the players to keep new players around. We are a small part of that responsibility. We have a greater responsibility not to drive people away, but we are customers of this game too-- if the game itself cannot keep people around, nothing we as players can do will change their minds. When a novice never comes back, if you really tried to give them a good experience, then you can't blame yourself. Maybe the game wasn't for them, maybe they were just trying it out for fun, or maybe there were any number of reasons why they didn't stick around. You can only do so much.

A lot of us get burned out because we've gotten into the mentality that we are Lusternia's only hope for survival, and if we don't personally see to the wishes of every newbie the game will collapse. Pretty soon, it gets to be too much, and we burn out. We have to get into the mindset that we are here to help and enhance a newbie's experience, but we are still players after all who are here to have fun.

Good point.

I've always followed the K.I.S.S moniker for teaching newbies (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Usually I'll only have them read the CGHELP file as opposed to the other ones as well as the CGHELP file. I try and trim out as much fluff as possible to try and get them to the action as quickly as possible.

I do my best to not make them quit within the first 10 seconds of starting the game, by not bogging them down with aimless amounts of crap like all the IC rules and stuff (respect the CR6s or else... kind of stuff) and other things like that. I prefer to introduce that slowly as time goes on and get them to killing stuff ASAP.

We call those undersecretaries


Undersecs, yes, Securities and Protectors? You mostly just sit around waiting for a raid as far as that job goes. You get your kiester over to that novice if the Secretary is busy or burned out.