You don't know how much coding resources we would need!

For that matter, I'm not sure why you can't just start wargames and do 2 teams of 2 or whatever.

Cause there's not always someone around that can do that and it would be much easier if the players could do it themselves when they want to and cost wise cheaper to the city/commune I'm sure.

Avenger does not cause offprime raids, avenger is related to it though.

Likewise, while it's a cool idea, adding more pvp 'games' probably won't magically discourage raiding, at least to the degree that people want. I'm not really too keen on adding more DMP/etc/buffs either, myself.

If anything, what Ragniliff said about 'making the people who fight, fight each other' one of the more sensible things here yet. People's problem comes mostly from the fact that those who don't really pvp are 'forced' into it every day, every hour on the hour and yet while it's fun for the raiders, the defenders usually have or want something to do other than pvp in Lusternia.

Avenger and karma don't actually do anything though. They just relocate the nonoptional PVP to different places. You can still get jumped whenever, or raided whenever.

This comes up every time and you say you don't want Avenger to guard the planes, which is certainly a defensible position, but there is a really important connection between what the PVP system doesn't cover and what PVP happens all the time and people get burnt out on and it hasn't changed in a long time.

You could kind of call discretionaries a PK-curbing system but what they do is kind of shuffle the odds around so raiders don't raid when there's likely to be an even force AND liveforest. I won't disparage them though. As for beefed up avatar-type mobs...well, all I'll say is that avatars are now only sort of a pvp mechanic. What they are more than that is a really fast and pretty risky bashing trip. You go in, get the mobs, and leave with the corpse very fast. If you do it during hours when people are awake at all, going back for a 2nd try tends to be suicidal, though this is by no means a hard and fast rule.

Very true.

And like I said, Estarra, the main issue is that it takes a Culture Minister / Aide (because it saps 3000 gold from the Arena funds for each event). There are also various nuisances with getting the settings right every time (because they always reset).

However... how many teams are there if you join a queue for wargames in Avenger? 2? If so, the only thing is to have an easier way to request a wargames without taking 10 people to do your 2v2 or whatever.

Put Conglute in Planar down to around Expert. Yep.

Except there aren't two games. There are people who are unwilling or unable to get involved in the mechanical end of things, though.

Part of that is the designers' fault. Cost of entry is stupidly high, and while it's not particularly hard to get a system for basic uses and tweak it from there if you use Windows, some people don't use Windows, some people don't want to have to rely on someone else's work, and some people struggle with even basic scripting logic. No matter how many times it gets mentioned, though, no one wants to lower the cost of entry, and the game is designed around messing with people's scripting talents. I'm willing to wager Xavius himself that the admin won't attempt the overhaul needed to make PvP accessible to more people, even though the game's only strong point is PvP. Without it, the game could be successfully ported to a MUSH with no real loss of content. Now go find a successful MUSH.

Part of it is the players' fault. There's an actual skill requirement to PvP. If you lack it, you'll suck. If you're unwilling to practice even though you suck (which is an awful lot of people), no amount of AFK influencing will make you not suck. If you have no willpower, you can't get into PvP.

The Avenger was only ever meant to protect the prime plane, and the outer planes would be considered more dangerous because of that. Anyway, discretionary powers were definitely put in as a response to planar raids. If I recall, there was some loud opposition to this (that we were ruining the only PK area) but we went ahead and implemented discretionary powers anyway. My point stands that the admin isn't afraid to take action if we see the need.

Okay, there's lots of opinions floating around but lets try and boil down the suggestions.

• Implement Insanity for org enemies on org planes
• New system for individuals to battle (like domoths), maybe available to do at anytime
• Upgrade arena

Did I miss anything?

You missed the "make these areas more end-game like with powerful defending mobs that chase and don't really affect anything if they die" so that there can't be 1-2 person raids (which was Veyrzhul's idea this time). It's been suggested a couple of times before though, I think.

But as I said in response, if it was done there would need to be other outlets for little raids.

1-2 person raids should not be discouraged, really. I mean would you rather every raid on your territory be something with 15 people that you can't kill? Get real.

Also, there is a suggestion to make Conglut lower in planar (a lot lower) so that everyone has access to it and thus there is not as huge a divide in death off-Prime between people with few lessons and a lot of lessons.

There would certainly be a lot fewer of them, and you'd likely only have these big raids when there's reason instead of the current "I'm bored."

But then it does remove the current "I'm bored" outlet for PKers, so that is an issue in and of itself.

Ah, well, by no means do I intend to say that you are completely ignoring the issue. But this keeps coming up, and that is the reason why. The outer planes (and the vast swathes of prime avenger doesn't protect, or worse, protects the WRONG PEOPLE, including most bashing grounds) are indeed where all the fighting goes on. Which just means that's where all the PK issues come from.

EDIT: Going to bed now, will check this thread tomorrow morning.

Lowering conglute is a good idea I think.

Also, when it comes to Karma, I don't see that as much of a disincentive. The karma loss is minimal, and karma curses are positively worthless, because of the massive cost for cursing, and the low cost for lifting the curse. Especially consider that lifting a curse can be easier than getting the blessing. I'd say that you should switch on the karma curse numbers so that it starts at 50/50 and scales from there. Or maybe 60/40, but no way 75/25. It's just not worth it.

I don't really think you can fix raiding, it isn't possible. People will always do it when they are going to win. The only thing you can really do is make some way to let the Non-coms defend.
I always though a sort of seige plane fortress style area. Basically you hope on an aether turret or in Glomdorings case. A tree cannon or something Iunno, and then you fire. This would let the non-coms hurt someone and then the real coms can run up onto the battle field and do their fighting thing. In the end one fortress would be standing or something, The winners capture the tree crystal or W/e and get some power for their org. Perferably not something that would steal another orgs power. Maybe you get a city artifact for a day or 2, something useful yet not a combat enchancement. IE: adds an extra amount of Grubs or something for the noncoms to get.

If you want to fix Karma to have an impact, do this:

When you get more suspects, your karma drain increases. Each suspect increases the cost to maintain a blessingnary fashion, so having 1 suspect means 2% tic per blessing, 3 means a 4% tic per blessing, etc.
At each increment of 5 suspects, make it cost progressively more, and less, to get a blessing, or recieve a curse. So at 5 suspects, I'll pay out the arse to keep my blessings up, AND I'll end up paying 60% to raise one, instead of 50%, but a curse will only cost 65% to place, but will also take 45% to remove.
Increase the speed on curse progession.

Should raiding be curbed? I honestly think so because a difference exists between raiding and the popular form of griefing that it has come to be.

Example: Raiding Ethseren and Ethglom to get supermobs to start the XI. That is a raid with a purpose, a goal that is in-sight. An example of the griefing

Example: Organization A raids the linking plane of Organization B and beats the tar out of them, so instead of leaving, they completely destroy everything in the plane and then wait for more defenders to come so they can constantly kill them. Then they just don't leave until they wait 30 minutes from the time the last defender was mauled.

That up there is why so many people get frustrated, because as was mentioned earlier, sometimes people don't know when to stop, it is just that simple. And for everyone who says that you can always just sit out on defending. Oh you can, trust me, but here is the thing, you can forget advancing easily in any organization unless you can write books, donate power like a bat out of hell, or participate in a revolt.

So, what this needs, from what I can tell, is a definte time that the raiders can get in to the opposing plane, do what they need to do, be it just kill people, go after a mob, what have you. I would say about 30 minutes and if any of the raiders die, they still keep the timer going and once it runs out, a protective barrier pushes out from the center of the plane and forces everyone who is a enemy of the linking organization out of the plane and it can't be entered again for 2 hours.

This strikes a balance as the raiders still have a time to do what they need to do, yet gives the defenders a break on how long a ass kicking can stay going.

lol.. what. That to me seems like it would take more coding than the arena idea.

....And the Arena idea is honestly going to stop the raids from the Grief-fests they turn in too?

No, they aren't. The Arena idea is a good one to give the pure PKers something to do between themselves, which is good, but that is not gonna stop the absurdity of what the raids have become.