Kills and Deaths

by Xenthos

Back to Common Grounds.

Ardmore2009-09-20 20:02:44
See, I want to see this more as a bashing tool.
Deathsight shows the people who fight lots, and RANKINGS XP tells the people who hunt a lot so I really didn't see the point of this. :/

The admins are pretty big morons if they don't think of people gaming the system they're implementing. You think they'd learn after the first time.

and the second time...

...and the third time...

...I don't need to keep going do I?
Unknown2009-09-20 20:38:53
QUOTE (Charune @ Sep 20 2009, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm rather peeved people are killing noncombatants just for these rankings. The idea of adding artificial limits because some players need to continuously kill newbies to boost this kind of disturbs me.


The "ranking" is meant to be more whimsical than a competition. If you have suggestions to curb these "dirty games", feel free to post them.


In the short term, how about monitoring the people who are gaming the system (with players reporting directly to the Divine with complaints, if necessary) and docking their rolepoints considerably? The rolepoints system is seriously under used.
Everiine2009-09-20 21:07:58
QUOTE (Zarquan @ Sep 20 2009, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In the short term, how about monitoring the people who are gaming the system (with players reporting directly to the Divine with complaints, if necessary) and docking their rolepoints considerably? The rolepoints system is seriously under used.

BUT I DONT PLAY 4 RP I PLAY FOR LULZ!!! DISCRIMASHUN!!!

Seriously, I like this idea though. You're right, the Rolepoints systems is so underused it's like it doesn't exist.
Xenthos2009-09-20 21:08:32
QUOTE (Everiine @ Sep 20 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
BUT I DONT PLAY 4 RP I PLAY FOR LULZ!!! DISCRIMASHUN!!!

Seriously, I like this idea though. You're right, the Rolepoints systems is so underused it's like it doesn't exist.

BUT IT'S MY ROLEPLAY TO KILL NEWBS!
Veyrzhul2009-09-20 21:38:34
That would probably be alot of work for the admins, though, and for something that is, in all honesty, not important enough to warrant it. If people find it necessary to have something implemented to prevent 'gaming' the kills ranking, then it should probably be coded and not overly complicated. I'd rather see efforts directed elsewhere.
Xenthos2009-09-20 21:42:53
QUOTE (Veyrzhul @ Sep 20 2009, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That would probably be alot of work for the admins, though, and for something that is, in all honesty, not important enough to warrant it. If people find it necessary to have something implemented to prevent 'gaming' the kills ranking, then it should probably be coded and not overly complicated. I'd rather see efforts directed elsewhere.

As long as people are forced to participate there will always be 'gaming'-- a mechanical system that accounts for all loopholes and issues, including high-might non-coms who have learned skills for bashing / tradeskills / what have you, as well as group fights, etc, would be far more complex to create than it's really worth.

The only way to remove the negative-effect gaming is for it to only work for those who are interested in participating. Which, in the end, is a pretty simple solution! It just means it will be rather more limited in scope. (And, even so, doesn't account for farming of low-might people who join in for whatever reason, including buffing up the count of their buddies)

I'm not sure it can ever exist as a completely whimsical thing, as apparently intended-- it's a ranking. There's going to be competition.
Unknown2009-09-20 22:44:09
QUOTE (Charune @ Sep 21 2009, 05:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The "ranking" is meant to be more whimsical than a competition. If you have suggestions to curb these "dirty games", feel free to post them.

Could the RANKINGS KILLS and RANKINGS DEATHS scoreboards just give the top kills in the last day (or week, perhaps), updated each night? That's a bit more whimsical and transient, still interesting to check occasionally, but really hard to 'game' to keep yourself at the top when your efforts are completely undone every few days.

The per-player top killed/killed by table is fine to stay as is.
Lehki2009-09-20 22:50:18
QUOTE (Avaer @ Sep 20 2009, 06:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Could the RANKINGS KILLS and RANKINGS DEATHS scoreboards just give the top kills in the last day (or week, perhaps), updated each night? That's a bit more whimsical and transient, still interesting to check occasionally, but really hard to 'game' to keep yourself at the top when your efforts are completely undone every few days.

The per-player top killed/killed by table is fine to stay as is.

I think this is a good idea, have the rankings reset regularly like combat rankings. Though I would say don't give it an line like combat, that's still giving Jozen people a reason to grief novices.

If it never reset anyway, you'd probably after a month or so end up with Jozen a few people with scores so high that nobody new will ever really have a chance of making it near the rankings.
Xenthos2009-09-20 22:56:28
Speaking for myself, I honestly just don't want to be part of the system at all. I don't care about seeing who I've killed or who has killed me. It's not of interest. I'd rather not be on someone's list as a "Hey, let's bump up that count," and I'd rather not have people looking at my list of people I've killed-- because, I've not really killed any of these people alone.

I'm pretty much never going to.

I do not play this game for the PK. It's a -part- of it, and I participate, but I have no interest in being a part of this listing. Period. I'm not a PKer, nor do I wish to be. And, regardless of whether or not I ever look at the lists, they're still there... which I don't want.

I suppose I'm not seeing the "whimsical" aspect even with your suggested change there.

So. Please let us opt out, or wipe our count, or what have you, along with other fixes to the sytem.
Zenon2009-09-20 22:57:26
Weekly sounds best to me. Otherwise we'll have Jozen people going crazy daily, because it'll take even more killing to ensure they're at the top.
Unknown2009-09-20 23:20:55
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Sep 21 2009, 08:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Speaking for myself, I honestly just don't want to be part of the system at all. I don't care about seeing who I've killed or who has killed me. It's not of interest. I'd rather not be on someone's list as a "Hey, let's bump up that count," and I'd rather not have people looking at my list of people I've killed-- because, I've not really killed any of these people alone.

...

So. Please let us opt out, or wipe our count, or what have you, along with other fixes to the sytem.

I think that's quite understandable, but can't you opt-out of this system in the same way you can opt-out of experience rankings or literary rankings... by not participating or attempting to raise your score at all?

If we had very PvP-centric players who were demanding that experience/might levels be toggleable and defaulted to hidden so that you had no way of knowing where most people were in the experience rankings (or how well you were really doing), would we cut out the majority of players from RANKINGS XP just so that they felt better? I somehow don't think so. tongue.gif
Everiine2009-09-20 23:24:30
QUOTE (Avaer @ Sep 20 2009, 07:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that's quite understandable, but can't you opt-out of this system in the same way you can opt-out of experience rankings or literary rankings... by not participating or attempting to raise your score at all?

If we had very PvP-centric players who were demanding that experience/might levels be toggleable and defaulted to hidden so that you had no way of knowing where most people were in the experience rankings (or how well you were really doing), would we cut out the majority of players from RANKINGS XP just so that they felt better? I somehow don't think so. tongue.gif

The difference is, if I choose not to raise my experience rank, I lose nothing. If I choose not to participate in Literary rankings, I lose nothing. However, even if I don't want to participate in this new system, someone can still come kill me to raise their score, but I LOSE something.
Xenthos2009-09-20 23:27:00
QUOTE (Avaer @ Sep 20 2009, 07:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that's quite understandable, but can't you opt-out of this system in the same way you can opt-out of experience rankings or literary rankings... by not participating or attempting to raise your score at all?

If we had very PvP-centric players who were demanding that experience/might levels be toggleable and defaulted to hidden so that you had no way of knowing where most people were in the experience rankings (or how well you were really doing), would we cut out the majority of players from RANKINGS XP just so that they felt better? I somehow don't think so. tongue.gif

No, I can't, because yesterday some newbie raiders were in Ethereal Glomdoring killing Daughters and everyone else was up on Cosmic. So, I got a couple of kills defending my territory.

Now I want them gone from the 'record'. I do not want them! They don't mean anything, they have no history except a timestamp, they prove absolutely nada. In terms of the literary system, I can write and submit books and never have them submitted for bardic or prestige, so nothing ever shows up in a ranking system, while I'm still helping my organization. The experience ranking has no such loaded meaning as this PK ranking.

(Frankly, they're not even comparable)

Just let me opt-out while still being able to do what I have to do as a guild leader / game player.
Xenthos2009-09-20 23:27:19
QUOTE (Everiine @ Sep 20 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The difference is, if I choose not to raise my experience rank, I lose nothing. If I choose not to participate in Literary rankings, I lose nothing. However, even if I don't want to participate in this new system, someone can still come kill me to raise their score, but I LOSE something.

^-- Yep.
Unknown2009-09-20 23:29:30
QUOTE (Everiine @ Sep 21 2009, 09:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The difference is, if I choose not to raise my experience rank, I lose nothing. If I choose not to participate in Literary rankings, I lose nothing. However, even if I don't want to participate in this new system, someone can still come kill me to raise their score, but I LOSE something.

But that loss isn't a result of the system itself - you can slip down the kill rankings simply by not fighting as much as those who are eclipsing your score, and that costs you nothing.

Death isn't any worse now that it is recorded, and I'd argue that it provides some very strong, objective information about how effective a fighter is, how victimized a non-combatant has been, and whether or not the Avenger justice system needs more tweaking. More information is rarely a bad thing!
Xenthos2009-09-20 23:33:06
QUOTE (Avaer @ Sep 20 2009, 07:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But that loss isn't a result of the system itself - you can slip down the kill rankings simply by not fighting as much as those who are eclipsing your score, and that costs you nothing.

Death isn't any worse now that it is recorded, and I'd argue that it provides some very strong, objective information about how effective a fighter is, how victimized a non-combatant has been, and whether or not the Avenger justice system needs more tweaking. More information is rarely a bad thing!

And I would argue that it has absolutely no relevant data, by pointing to my post above where it was me defending against a few low-level raiders.

Further-- why couldn't they keep and store this information for themselves, for their own data, if they really wanted to use it for tweaking or to see who is doing what? This isn't an internal rankings system for their use, it's a public rankings system and view for the game at large. If they want to keep an internal one with more information, fine, more power to them.

I still want to opt out of the public plan!

(Also, doing nothing doesn't protect you, because if you're jumped and die... well... you did nothing but you're forced to participate, eh?)
Everiine2009-09-20 23:34:56
QUOTE (Avaer @ Sep 20 2009, 07:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But that loss isn't a result of the system itself - you can slip down the kill rankings simply by not fighting as much as those who are eclipsing your score, and that costs you nothing.

Yes, doing nothing will lower my score. I can control that, and choose to do that. I cannot control when a Demigod is waiting on the road to kill me as I walk out because he wants his score to go up.

QUOTE
Death isn't any worse now that it is recorded, and I'd argue that it provides some very strong, objective information about how effective a fighter is, how victimized a non-combatant has been, and whether or not the Avenger justice system needs more tweaking. More information is rarely a bad thing!

Death isn't any worse, except now killing newbies on the roads is encouraged, for example (which is happening) because someone just wants their score raised. That is a problem. You don't learn anything from it, it doesn't teach anything. It's simply someone being an asshat with the blessing of the mechanics.
Unknown2009-09-20 23:39:44
CODE
rankings deaths
Rank  Player                                                            Deaths
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   1. Squire Brujah, Ward of Lyfon                                           9
   2. Evaine Nightshade, Herald of Hatred                                    7
   3. Apprentice Korimbu                                                     7
   4. Troubadour Jayden                                                      6
   5. Lady Marie                                                             6
   6. Diamante Stillwind, the Suffered Wraith                                6
   7. Druid Ocvran of the Blacktalon                                         5
   8. Cor Viynain of the Blood                                               5
   9. Sir Ruiku Dekoven, Aspirant of Aegis                                   5
  10. Celina, the Whisper of Death                                           4
  11. Bugis                                                                  4
  12. Templar Lyfon Eli'Silar, Knight of Aegis                               3
  13. Wyrden Ravager Merik                                                   3
  14. Grandmaster of Sacrifice Otem Ama'nar'isil                             3
  15. Trooper Yukari Feyranti, Operations Trainee                            2
  16. Krin                                                                   2
  17. Mirenye Stormcrow, Daughter of Silver Moonlight                        2
  18. Krellan, Talons of Crow                                                2
  19. Silvaeris, Whisper of the Wyrd                                         2
  20. Shakiniel's Charge, Lord Pharamon Inalai, The Grey                     2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


CODE
rankings kills
Rank  Player                                                             Kills
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   1. Deathguard Jozen Dawneye                                              20
   2. Ur'Lord Thoros d'Murani, Scythe of The Red Masque                     13
   3. Krellan, Talons of Crow                                               11
   4. Ser Shuyin of the Shadows                                             11
   5. Celina, the Whisper of Death                                          10
   6. Elemental Supremacist, Narsrim D'cente`, Crescendo of Transformatio    9
   7. Cor Viynain of the Blood                                               9
   8. Sidd                                                                   6
   9. Attendant Esano, Scion of the Shattered Earth                          6
  10. Desitrus Kamau                                                         5
  11. General Vathael Feyranti, Knife of Fain                                4
  12. Kalas Ixion, Ouroborian Avatar                                         3
  13. Lord Fist Romero, Reborn of Taint and Hatred                           2
  14. Squire Brujah, Ward of Lyfon                                           2
  15. Urazial Inseira                                                        2
  16. Merciful Judge Vermilla Zayah                                          2
  17. Sir Ruiku Dekoven, Aspirant of Aegis                                   2
  18. Spirit Warden Xenthos An'Ryshe, the Ebon Strategist                    2
  19. Diamante Stillwind, the Suffered Wraith                                2
  20. Seren Brave Ashti                                                      2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



One of these things is not like the other...
Xenthos2009-09-20 23:45:04
QUOTE (Kialkarkea @ Sep 20 2009, 07:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One of these things is not like the other...

And look at Evaine, there. It's not like she's much of a raider. She's 25% of my might. She gets snapped up for easy points while hunting.
Unknown2009-09-20 23:46:57
I still believe that other ranking systems which are publically accessible, such as might, experience, credibility, organization rank and so on are as equally loaded with meaning as a count of how many times you've died to another player. To demand to be exempt from scrutiny in that area, because you place no value or meaning upon it, is no more valid than a demand to be exempt from the other systems.

For example, personally, I would very much like might information to be toggled public or not, because how many skills I have says nothing about how well I can use them or what my capability is in combat. However, most of the requests for spars and duels that I hear specifically reference might, and the information it provides is useful when you have context to surround it.

I'm not sure why the same would not be true of a kill count: if I can see that you killed two lowbies, all I have to do is ask to find out why you did so - the fact that it was in a group defending your nation doesn't change the fact that you did kill them.

By the way, Xenthos, are you wanting to stay off the RANKINGS readout, but still have anyone be able to KILLS XENTHOS, DEATHS XENTHOS? In that case, if it was a daily or weekly scoreboard, wouldn't that ensure you were rarely upon it since you only defend at need?