I get one summon a day. We've already been over this ground.

I never said I wanted to use any powers on Othero, but if we need a backup that is pretty much the job of my role.

Your plan does the following-

Kills Othero
Has Celina hit by his revenge ability
Has Celina elected leader

It does nothing more and nothing less. You suggest Celina's ability is worthless right now however whatever use it may of had would be rendered moot after doing this plan of action anyways. It would neither confirm her alignment nor would it help the town on the basis we kill Othero if he is truely town.

You also seem to keep twisting exactly what Othero himself agreed to at the start. He said he was willing to step forward, get elected, then killed to prove himself town. He even went along with this.. Hell, it isn't a plan really, until I brought up the fact it does not prove anything.

The last time we did this game we had at least half of the roles suggested for this plan. I'm not certain we have a resser personally, but in either case we lose the leader which was your orginal suggestion. If we don't have someone capable of handling the job outside of day I can take care of it if neccessary.

My question to you is this. When did the plan for you change from removing the leader from possible mafia to getting Celina elected?

Ok. Holy hell has it been fun reading the last six pages on my little blackberry screen! I'm going to brief here for that very same reason. Right now, in my opinion, Req's plan has the most merit. Othero threw himself out there, as did Celina. We can confirm one town and power confirm someone else.

I don't relish the thought of killing a townie, but the other non-random option is Lorick attempting to kill Othero with a supposed circumstantial day kill.

NOMINATE CELINA FOR LEADER
VOTE OTHERO

I'll engage in more discussion when I'm not typing on a keyboard designed for Tom Thumb.

When I found out that we definitely have a killing role. My previous plan was to just straight up sacrifice a blue. Put someone in office, have a vig (day or night) shoot the new leader, and play a normal game of mafia from there. This worked off of the assumption that we had a vigilante available to us and I was hoping we'd be able to not lynch anyone today to keep our numbers up.

Then I saw that it's entirely likely that Bali is going to force us to lynch someone. And given the claims we have now, this seemed like the best way to use our assets. Othero already offered to die, and by lynching him we can test Celina. If Celina is who she says she is, I'd be ok with having her unlynchable for the time being. We get to shop tomorrow, and I suggest that we all go for items that look the most lethal.

However you go about it, Bali hates us enough that we are required to choose an unlynchable and we can't progress until we do. Celinaa certainly won't be clear, but if she survives Othero then she's the most verified person we have available. Since we have to choose someone, it might as well be someone we can test. Keep in mind that I was also completely willing to switch to Lorick until the whole debacle with the ghost man.

I understand that I looks like I'm lobbying to make Celina unlynchable, and if people have a problem with that then feel free to suggest alternatives, but I still think that anyone willing to vote for someone else without verification is probably mafia or mason, and neither group benefits from being outed at the moment.

I think this is still within the realm of what Othero volunteered to do. He agreed to die for the sake of the town. If he's only willing to die after being elected leader, you don't find that at least a little suspicious? And as for being truly town, the only way we can know that is if he dies. And last time we did this game, I was playing on a Wiimote. I'm a bit verbose to play effectively that way.

Oh, and antoher thing. Bulletproof roles are traditionally there to be cleared. You shoot them, they claim hit, and you trust them as town. Because we don't know exactly who is in this setup, it's possible and even likely that mafia gets a kill resistance, but Celina verified at least part of her claim. And if the only ability that she has is her 1-time shield, then the fact that she claimed it makes it pointless.

Remember that the mafia doesn't need to kill everyone to win. They just have to be half of the population. So now that Celina outed herself, they just won't shoot her. If they do, it slows them down by an entire day which is just inviting disaster for the mafia. So if we test her like this, it converts her useless ability into the most verified claim we have, and the doc can protect her from there.

That is the issue though. Othero orginally went with the current plan you put forth, where he achieved neither the leadership role _and_ died for little reason. Out of the two, he has more circumstantial issues in his favor and I'm more inclined to believe him over Celina who has only been contributing to either deride me say whatever gets her elected. The fact you don't find that itself suspicious is strange to me.

I mean, "Or say whatever gets her elected"

That's fine. If you have a better candidate for leader, I'm all ears. But I still want Celina to lynch Othero. It's too suspicious to not lynch Othero at this point. And I figured that if Celina was lying, we got rid of the leader.

So let's put it this way. We elect a leader and then lynch Othero, killing the leader. Who wants to be the leader now?

Everything I do is suspicious to you. Look how that turned out last game.

Nor have I said anything to "get myself elected." Unless you have quotes to support yourself. I'm guessing you don't.

Since Requiem mentioned it, that is my only power.

I'm always suspicious at the start of a mafia game. It's good play to never take things at face value to play according to each game, rather than past record. As Zetsu so correctly put it while being mafia, he asked me if I was suspicious of everyone. To varying degrees.. To varying degrees..

To be honest, if testing Celina is all you are trying to accomplish, we don't need her as a leader. If you are trying to clear the leader office off the map, again, it doesn't have to occur in a single day. You forced me to come forward, but I'm hoping we have a much more long term vig. We can seperate the two points if you like into two different goals and look at this game in a much more long term view. If I understand you right you want..

1. Have Celina vote for Othero to confirm Celina
2. Have the leader removed from play

We are incapable of doing both at this time, how about we focus on one for now and get the other later down the line.

So, how about this. We vote a leader, someone people are fairly certain doesn't have immunities. We are sure to have investigators of some sort, they can check up on the leader and report back day 2 to determine further action. We can have Celina lynch Othero to prove her claim today and Othero's. If we have a resser, they can determine whom to res. If the leader dies during the night, the point is moot anyways and we spent all of this time wrangling with you to reveal 2 additional roles. If the investigations aren't good enough, we can off the leader.

If there is nothing for the investigators to report, guess what, they don't have to reveal their role and we get a somewhat looked at leader.

Or... Is that too unreasonible for you?

Here's my reasoning for going with Celina. And again, if you have someone better I'm all ears.

1) We have to elect a leader. Bali hates us, so this is not an option.

2) The concept of removing the only method town is guaranteed to have to deal with a potential problem sets my teeth on edge. We probably have a vig in some variety, and you've indicated that you have a 1-shot daykill, but those hinge on individuals that the mafia can remove. Lynching people is the only recourse we KNOW we'll have.

3) Given how uncomfortable I am about castrating the town, I'd rather remove the unlynchable position entirely from play, which is why I asked for a blue sac volunteer.

4) Othero volunteered to be sacrificed, but also revealed that he had the hunter-esque ability.

5) On principle, we should test as many claims as possible. Especially this early in the game, where we need something to use as a launching point.

6) Othero's ability is perfect for verifying Celina's. And doesn't rely on a vigilante that may or may not actually exist. However, if we nominate Othero like originally planned, we lose the ability to test BOTH of their claims.

7) Like someone said earlier, we're never going to get a 100% guarantee in day 1 with a day start. The best we can do is trying to make our odds better than random.

8) Both you and Celina have claims that we can feasibly verify. Originally, I would have been fine with you, but when asked to request that the king verify you to the best of his abilities you erected a flimsy excuse and rushed to ask something irrelevant. Even if we assume that you are town (which is far and away not something I'd wager on right now) and just dropped the ball, it's enough that I won't risk putting you into leadership.

9) That leaves Celina. So far, she hasn't appeared to be overtly scummy. She's the closest we can get to "better than random" right now. And given point 1, I don't see why we wouldn't choose her.

Minor responses to Lorick.

We don't know for sure that we have an investigative role. While normally I'd just assume that we did, you're asking us to believe that silence means that the leader is clear. Which works if we know we have a cop, but otherwise we just have a random unlynchable who hasn't been looked at at all. And even worse, is now cleared as town.

Also, if Celine is telling the truth, she won't die today. Othero would be the only dead person for the rezzer to pick up.

The town will have kill powers. I'm betting we have a night kill user, perhaps limited in shots. Plus items. Like Jack said, I think you are getting way to hung up on getting a perfect leader then failing to elect one. It's like you are working cross purposes for the end result.

Whomever gets elected leader will be prime investigation material. For example, if I was elected I would be investigated, there is no way it wouldn't happen. If I wasn't elected, we would have investigators being forced to split their time between whom to investigate. Same if we left both Celina and Othero in play. Also the same if we leave Celina vulnerable while doing the same to me with any doctors we may have in play. The elected get galvanized into being examined, and I stated before I don't mind it. You seem to assume I have some sinister purpose, but if I was scum I would would have a very short shelf life wouldn't I.

Which is why I don't see why we need either of them elected to act as you've suggested, which you keep trying to ram home. Personally, I'd rather have Othero in the office than Celina, but they hardly require it for what you are suggesting.

Plus whomever dies to mafia. You keep forgetting this fact.

Soo.. You are suggesting, and without any backing mind you, that the town has neither a vig, an investigator, nor a resser, and thus any plan I put forth is doomed to fail?

In reverse chronological order of posting.

I'm not suggesting anything except that you're making assumptions. All of your plans so far have relied on at least PR that we may or may not have. So they have at least some percentage of failure. As opposed to my plan which can't fail. Either they were telling the truth and the outcome works as I said, or one of them was lying and we just killed mafia.

Mafia kills don't show up until the morning of day 2. Which is presumably too late for the rezzer to do anything until that night. I'm not forgetting that mafia kills, you're just talking about a different time frame than I am.

As for the leader, right now it's really between you and Celina. You've screwed up more than Celina, which to me makes you scummier. I'm also very against electing you for unlynchable, since it seems at least possible, if not actually likely, that you're a serial killer. And if you really are a jack of all trades type of killer (which is Bali's favorite type) I wouldn't put it past you to have either permanent innocence, or some sort of 1-shot deal that only works for one night.

The only other way I'd be willing to elect someone else is if we get another claim with a verifiable power, or if we just randomly select a leader. I'd rather not have anymore claims right now, unless you have good reason to be anti-Celine. Random selection gives us a probable 1 in 4 chance of electing mafia, and that's assuming we can even manage to RNG someone properly, given there's no way to make sure we aren't just voting the person we want, it's likely that mafia will choose the leader.

All of the arguements you have put forth in favor of Celina are also the same ones that suffer from your arguements against me. You've also pushed very very hard to discount the chance of any power roles within the fellowship, elect Celina, and kill Othero, all without giving up a scrap of information about yourself and attempt to lead the towns actions. You are unwilling to claim, and since you so strongly discount the roles we've put forth I'm inclined to believe you are not a member of the three. Which is odd for being so strongly against any sort of claim reveal.

That's all here in Bali's journal entry thing.

No, my argument against you is that you dodged the question we asked you to give to the ghost king. Celina did no such thing. And since you and Celina are the only people who have claimed verifiable roles, it's between you and Celina and I'd prefer her to my FoS for serial killer.