Why would you vote for someone for leader whom you just accused of lying/decieving!?

What??

I didn't. I said he screwed up asking a completely irrelevant question. If you mean the necromancy thing, I'm just arguing with his definition...if you think he's lying you can just wait and see if he conjures a non-dead thing tomorrow.

Which I can easily do. I'd hate using one of the other ones to prove myself, but if it is neccessary I can do so. I put my name forth because I have a power set I can easily show, am not near as important as other town roles, and can prevent mass claims because I can show my power set without having to reveal someone else's role. This is more of a traditional game with an item mechanic I think Bali will be throwing at us later, so avoiding a mass claim is in our interest. The leader role last game caused four people to reveal themselves and if the mafia actually had ways to kill those people I'm not sure the town would of won that game.

I don't mind answering questions, although the only person to really do so in a method I can answer with bali's new rules has been Shiri.

Oh, before I forget, Celina did not claim Tanking powers, but a 1 shot kill resist. Proving her claim would leave her just as vulnerable as anyone else we put into that position. If we are electing people on the basis of kill resistance, Celina's claim is hardly the best for leader. So, essentially, if we elect Celina we would be forcing the doctor's hand if the doctor wanted to keep her safe, same with anyone else.

About Shooting Celina:
If we don't have anyone capable of attacking Celina during the day, then I feel less strongly about the whole scheme.

However, I'm not sure you guys are really thinking in the correct mindset. A 1-shot kill protection seems like a super-spiffy thing that makes the mafia waste a night kill, but now they know about Celina and if she's actually not mafia, then they'd assume she was telling the truth. The element of surprise is lost and we have no advantage in Celina's tankiness.

If we have a vig shoot her and she confirms that she was shot (or, like I said, she says she was shot and the vig contradicts her) then we can turn her minor protection into a clear townie. As it is, we have to assume everyone is scum until proven otherwise. Proving that people are town sided is a good thing. And as for forcing the doctor's hand...well, you have to protect the clears anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

That's my reasoning behind shooting Celina at night, but as previously mentioned, I don't feel nearly as strongly about a night shot for the time being.

About Dayvig:
If someone, right now, has the ability to kill someone, then shoot Celina in the face. If you do, we can vote either of you for leader.

@Daganev: You've really got to read more. There were multiple items last game that gave people the ability to kill during the day. Having immunity to 1 daykill doesn't imply that someone has a role right now that could do it. Also, you're still assuming she's telling the truth, which you can't do.

About Lorick:
Lorick's abilities are only useful if he can prove that he's sided with the town. So far the only thing we've seen could easily be third-party or mafia. He whiffed the chance to show that he was actually with us by dodging any of the questions that would have been useful, and then gives us promises to demonstrate his town-sidedness tomorrow. After we've made him unlynchable. Even if you don't think that it's enough to lynch him, I don't see how you don't find that at least suspicious enough to not nominate him for leader.

My current stance on Lorick is that he's scummy as hell, but if the rest of his abilities are actually useful, then it's worth not lynching him today on the off chance that he's actually town. He's still not unlynchable material, however.


My FoS's:
Currently I suspect Arix and Othero, for randomly nominating someone besides themselves. Only mafia/cult/masons know enough about other people to be comfortable voting the unlynchable.

I also suspect Shiri for not only accepting that Lorick just "screwed up" instead of assuming malicious intent and having him prove himself tomorrow, but then turning around and immediately voting Lorick unlynchable.

I know that I have a tendency to generate Walls O' Text and people have previously expressed dismay about this fact (and it obviously encourages people to just ignore what I'm saying given that Lorick is the only one who actually responds to me). Would it be better if I had split that into 4 separate posts, or are you guys going to ignore me regardless of how I format myself?

Also, Lorick, "tankiness" isn't actually a power. I've been using the term to express anyone who doesn't die the first time someone looks at them funny, and I assume that's what everyone else meant too. A bulletproof (1-shot kill resist) role still counts as "tanky."

What I was meaning by "tankiness" was akin to what Visaeris had the last game. 50/50 was pretty tanky.

The arguement you put forth has two conflicting parts. First, you suggest that having a 1 shot kill whiff is pretty good. Yes, it is, and if that was the basis alone for the vote it has some merit. However, the second part of your arguement is to strip this very defense you are argueing for, thus rendering it useless. I don't see how this results in your version of a "tanky" leader....

I would almost suggest the best course of action would be to just have someone use a day investigation or similiar power on Celina to show alignment and leave resistance in, but that would reveal a potential town power role and be a waste this soon in the game. So, lets not have power roles cropping up everywhere to just settle this issue.

Bali's setup last time is publicly available here. For anyone who wasn't in the game/doesn't remember how it works. He has a complete list of roles, the challenges we could have done, and all of the items available. I'd advise everyone to go read the items, since I suspect they'd change the least. They're mostly 1-shot abilities from traditional roles. And an insta-death box of RAGE!

Yeah, basically the mafia last game was a charge up and then murder mafia with the exception of Req's character who filled out the mafia's "brute with a sword" set up. They had a sociopath kill everything warlock/roleblocker, a day immune brute, and a governor/investigator.

Just speculation, but this time around the theme would lend itself to some sort of spy/assassin/maybe investigator, something tanky and tough, and some sort of mafia leader. Bali tends to like varied roles for his mafia. Also, the sk last time had innocence to help him out, so I wouldn't rule out another member of the scum being immune to traditional investigation.

1) That's fine. Now we've clarified our terms. I'm going to continue using "tanky" to mean anyone that has any chance of not dying. Plus, Celina is technically tankier than a 50/50 resist, since she definitely won't die the first time, when Vis could.

2) I've always argued against a tanky unlynchable unless proven town. I don't want someone that we can't remove later, unless we know for sure that we won't need to do so. So we actually disagree about this.

Read my post again. I don't argue that stripping the defense renders it useless. We're converting a useless ability (no surprise if mafia knows about it, they just won't kill Celina now) into something valuable, which is a cleared townie. Her ability is far better after we strip it. The end result isn't a "tanky" unlynchable, it's a town-sided one. And that's what I've been arguing for the entire time.

3) I do actually agree with you on this one. If we have any way to verify someone today, I suggest we use it. If the target is innocent, we elect them leader. If they're mafia, then we lynch them and just randomly elect a leader. Assuming traditional odds, it's 1/4 chance that a random vote gets mafia right now. If we lynch a mafia member we can probably random vote safely.

I know you feel like this is really early to be revealing powers, but the more people we can prove are town, the closer we are to finding mafia. It doesn't matter if all of our PRs die but we found all of the mafia first. We just slowly lynch them until we win.

I do actually have a suggestion, but I'm putting it in a new post so people might actually read it.

@Requiem: I never nominated anyone. I suggested we put up someone who isn't tanky. We have the chance to give someone extra protection, might as well give it to someone who we think is vulnerable.

Note that stripping someone's defense does not by any stretch of the wording show they are in the fellowship any more than my summoning does. You seem to assume that outing whomever can day kill to strip Celina's defense somehow clears either into confirmed when in fact all we know for certain is what either of their powers are. Which is the same arguement I've put forth for my nomination.

I think either of the "confirm a townie" ideas are good ones. The day vig thing was posted last night and we still haven't seen anyone try it yet so maybe we don't have one.

I suggest a blue sac. I don't know if anyone would be up for it, given the long period of down-time in a forum game, but I figured I'd at least throw it out there.

The way I see it, the leader role is really just a liability for town. People keep implying that we'd have to protect the leader, or that people should trust the leader, or that the leader is in some way clear because it was chosen by the majority. This isn't the case. Mafia could just as easily get elected leader as town could, and mafia actually has a MUCH higher incentive to get the position. So even more than people nominating someone besides themselves, be wary of people that did nominate themselves. And yes, I know that this includes myself.

I've been substituting the word "unlynchable" for "leader" in my past several posts. Remember that this isn't actually an RPG. The only thing nominating a leader does is make that person unlynchable, and gives them gold to buy all the items.

I suggest that someone completely blue, with no abilities, offers to be nominated leader and then we have the vig shoot that person at night. It wastes a townie, but we have to assume that it's not necessary for us to lynch mafia today without losing. We can even no-lynch today if necessary (although Bali said something about no "no vote" which might mean we can't no-lynch but I'm not sure about that) so we don't lose too many people before we start getting reports. It also ensures that we don't end up with mafia in the unlynchable position.

We could also just nominate one of the inactives and shoot them at night. That way we don't have to worry about finding someone who doesn't want to play all that much. Or we could just decide who we're going to lynch, nominate them for leader, and have them shot.

That is... An interesting suggestion. However, I see a small flaw in this plan which involves day kills. Req, I claimed Jack of all trades. Please think about that for me.

I dunno. It might've been this post that linked you with Arix in my head. I can't find any reason why I was so sure you were scummy. Talk more, though...

^^butt covering

What is the flaw? I was suggesting that we shoot them at night. I think we can safely assume that we have SOME way to remove the unlynchable from office. Also, I already said I'd be willing to let you try again tomorrow. If you really did just screw up, then it's in our best interests not to kill you. That was under the bold heading About Lorick. I still refuse to nominate you unlynchable though, and in my plan, it would be a powerless village role that we sacrificed. You aren't even eligible.

I was talking about Celina.

As for your latest plan, eh, still sorting out my feelings on it. For one, it operates under the assumption we have a vig. We didn't, if I recall, the last game. I'm wary about just throwing in anyone, especially when the first choice would be "lurker" whom as Shiri stated are traditionally mafia (Look at our play last time). We might end up killing, true, but we might also end up in a situation where we can't get to them due to random chance.

As for me, I don't have any resistances or immunities, just various summons.

Othero, Furien, could we hear your feelings please? You've both been very quiet.

Hello, group! I just wiped the sand from my eyes.

I'm weary about an unlynchable leader because right now we have very little, if any, information to determine who is scum. And I'm also weary about having any pro-town vig come out right now because if we do end up electing a mafia we will likely need him to get rid of the otherwise unlynchable leader (as the mafia wouldn't kill the leader). For that reason I don't support electing Celina.