Streamlining Combat

by Estarra

Back to Common Grounds.

Gregori2009-11-20 01:03:44
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Nov 19 2009, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Apparently. Since, as I said, it's not even choke that's screwing him up here.

There are a lot of other things.


QUOTE (Lehki @ Nov 19 2009, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shield stun + love potion makes it next to impossible to try to keep up with curing and actually maintain any offense, yah. ):


QUOTE (Gregori @ Nov 19 2009, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
choke love potion shield stun > druid

See: Lehki

Xenthos2009-11-20 01:08:46
QUOTE (Gregori @ Nov 19 2009, 08:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Nov 19 2009, 07:01 PM)

Apparently. Since, as I said, it's not even choke that's screwing him up here.

There are a lot of other things.


QUOTE (Lehki)
Shield stun + love potion makes it next to impossible to try to keep up with curing and actually maintain any offense, yah. ):



Shield stun and love potion != choke.

And, INVOKE CIRCLE by itself also stops his offense in its tracks. Again, no choke.

Like I said, in this case, the issue is not Choke.
Lehki2009-11-20 01:11:02
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Nov 19 2009, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shield stun and love potion != choke.

And, INVOKE CIRCLE by itself also stops his offense in its tracks. Again, no choke.

I was refering to shield stun and love potion in choke, I thought that was pretty obvious. They're just fine outside of choke.
Xenthos2009-11-20 01:11:41
QUOTE (Lehki @ Nov 19 2009, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was refering to shield stun and love potion in choke. They're just fine outside of choke.

From what I've seen... not so much. :/

No offense, but your offense follows one of two predictable paths. Both with the same end goal in mind. Either blackout and hope to stick a sap, or deepsleep and hope to stick a sap. The blackout offense is halted completely by stopping you from flicking a second mote while off allheale-balance, and deepsleep takes REFRESH ME / touching chessboard / sleeping somewhere else.

I'm mostly saying this because I don't feel that discussing Choke as stopping your offense is really all that relevant. A lot of things do, that don't involve Choke at all.
Gregori2009-11-20 01:12:30
QUOTE (Rainydays @ Nov 19 2009, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If the choked person has a passive offense based on enemy status, love potion pretty well gums it up in choke. See Lehki fighting Celina.



QUOTE (Xenthos @ Nov 19 2009, 07:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shield stun and love potion != choke.


... Seriously? Wow... just wow... He was talking about those effects inside of choke.

Did you miss the sign on the door to this conversation where it was choke being discussed? Maybe you should go back and take another look at it, then come join those of us talking about issues when fighting in choke. Like... love potion and shield stun completely wrecking a druid's offense.
Unknown2009-11-20 01:14:43
I'm going to be the only person that isn't shocked when we discover that Xenthos and Gregori have been the same person since day one.
Xenthos2009-11-20 01:16:15
QUOTE (Gregori @ Nov 19 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
... Seriously? Wow... just wow... He was talking about those effects inside of choke.

Did you miss the sign on the door to this conversation where it was choke being discussed? Maybe you should go back and take another look at it, then come join those of us talking about issues when fighting in choke. Like... love potion and shield stun completely wrecking a druid's offense.

Again. Shield completely wrecks the offense with this example. No choke involved. I'm not sure why you're so wedded to this notion. I've given you some other alternatives to talk to to get more opinions, but I don't see why one person's opinion should be taken as the Holy Grail of Ultimate Druid Experience. Because... it's not.
Lehki2009-11-20 01:17:48
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Nov 19 2009, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From what I've seen... not so much. :/

No offense, but your offense follows one of two predictable paths. Both with the same end goal in mind. Either blackout and hope to stick a sap, or deepsleep and hope to stick a sap. The blackout offense is halted completely by stopping you from flicking a second mote while off allheale-balance, and deepsleep takes REFRESH ME / touching chessboard / sleeping somewhere else.

I'm mostly saying this because I don't feel that discussing Choke as stopping your offense is really all that relevant. A lot of things do, that don't involve Choke at all.

Dude, you have no idea what you're even talking about, just stop.
Xenthos2009-11-20 01:19:15
QUOTE (Lehki @ Nov 19 2009, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dude, you have no idea what you're even talking about, just stop.

I've spent about an hour and a half over the last couple of days testing this.

Again, this is more to say that the "omg nerf Choke!!!" thing is... well... not all about Choke here. There are a lot of other things going on. Including love potions, brumetowers, healing auras, etc.
Gregori2009-11-20 01:20:47
Let's also look at the ramifications of love potion versus shield in choke against a druid.

Love potion halts druid offense to basically nothing until two actions are made while inside of choke or until X amount of actions are made inside of choke so the person can get away from the choker. 1vs1 this is not easy to do if the choker can read well enough to see what direction the person went

Shield is 1 action and only halts the druids offense until a nullify happens. So the druid doesn't have to sacrifice multiple actions to respond to the choker they can drop one heal action for a nullify and have some offense back.

Love potion and invoke circle are as far different from each other as Choke and Aeon/Sap are.
Murphy2009-11-20 01:21:03
Just a quick aside about group combat, the ONE thing that sucks for any combatant, especially when you have say 4 good fighters against 10 medium ones, is the webwhore. Having 1 newbie even lvl 20 spamming web while others try to roll you makes it totally not fun to fight. If there was a way to avoid being constantly webbed (diminshed returns? an ability in high discipline that allows you to have 20 seconds of being unwebbable?) it would make the group dynamic way more fun. Sure you might die anyway to the countless other abilities, but it makes the challenge more fun, and also requires a higher level of skill from the newbies learning group combat instead of just spamming the same macro over and over.
Gregori2009-11-20 01:21:52
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Nov 19 2009, 07:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've spent about an hour and a half over the last couple of days testing this.

Again, this is more to say that the "omg nerf Choke!!!" thing is... well... not all about Choke here. There are a lot of other things going on. Including love potions, brumetowers, healing auras, etc.



So you are the expert on druid and choke combat now cause you spent a couple hours testing?
Lehki2009-11-20 01:22:53
QUOTE (Gregori @ Nov 19 2009, 08:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Let's also look at the ramifications of love potion versus shield in choke against a druid.

Love potion halts druiid offense to basically nothing until two actions are made while inside of choke or until X amount of actions are made inside of choke sol the person can get away from the choker. 1vs1 this is not easy to do if the choker can read well enough to see what direction the person went

Shield is 1 action and only halts the druids offense until a nullify happens. So the druid doesn't have to sacrifice multiple actions to respond to the choker they can drop one heal action for a nullify and have some offense back.

Love potion and invoke circle are as far different from each other as Choke and Aeon/Sap are.

When he mentions shield, he's talking about his sitting in trees, doing nothing but spam invoke circle and then running out of my demesne whenever I can manage to get something in.
Xenthos2009-11-20 01:23:48
QUOTE (Gregori @ Nov 19 2009, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So you are the expert on druid and choke combat now cause you spent a couple hours testing?

Less an expert on Druid combat, and more an observer on a specific Druid's offense, which is what is being touted as the "primary example" here. You know, that would be why I suggested you get some more Druids discussing it!

QUOTE (Lehki @ Nov 19 2009, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When he mentions shield, he's talking about his sitting in trees, doing nothing but spam invoke circle and then running out of my demesne whenever I can manage to get something in.

When you get me to full tiredness usually, sure, I go off to sleep it away. And I leave when you get a couple of those 8s blackouts in a row in on me. Those blackouts can be rough. ohmy.gif
Fern2009-11-20 01:24:15
QUOTE (Murphy @ Nov 19 2009, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a quick aside about group combat, the ONE thing that sucks for any combatant, especially when you have say 4 good fighters against 10 medium ones, is the webwhore. Having 1 newbie even lvl 20 spamming web while others try to roll you makes it totally not fun to fight. If there was a way to avoid being constantly webbed (diminshed returns? an ability in high discipline that allows you to have 20 seconds of being unwebbable?) it would make the group dynamic way more fun. Sure you might die anyway to the countless other abilities, but it makes the challenge more fun, and also requires a higher level of skill from the newbies learning group combat instead of just spamming the same macro over and over.


Noooooooooooo.

Druid combat relies on vines in order to stick sap. Without vines, I can't do anything. At all.
Unknown2009-11-20 01:26:13
QUOTE (Murphy @ Nov 20 2009, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a quick aside about group combat, the ONE thing that sucks for any combatant, especially when you have say 4 good fighters against 10 medium ones, is the webwhore. Having 1 newbie even lvl 20 spamming web while others try to roll you makes it totally not fun to fight. If there was a way to avoid being constantly webbed (diminshed returns? an ability in high discipline that allows you to have 20 seconds of being unwebbable?) it would make the group dynamic way more fun. Sure you might die anyway to the countless other abilities, but it makes the challenge more fun, and also requires a higher level of skill from the newbies learning group combat instead of just spamming the same macro over and over.


What that does is reduce the usefulness of lower people who have no skills/system curing. So ultimately it wouldn't be good.
Murphy2009-11-20 01:27:36
You know choke could always be changed to simply have a delay of commands, instead of only allowing your last command through. That would still make it useful but not a total death sentence. Then you could beef up shadowdancer offence in other cool ways instead of them being totally reliant on choke. I remember a day when there were only moondancers, and if you knew what you were doing you could roll someone with minimal use of hexes (or even if you took healing) bring back the skill involved with the class, instead of just getting your choke timing right.
Unknown2009-11-20 01:27:45
QUOTE (Gregori @ Nov 20 2009, 02:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So you are the expert on druid and choke combat now cause you spent a couple hours testing?


No, he's not, but he is effectively talking about teriary details and not the crux of the thing- that is, incurable aeon is an awful mechanic that needs changing. Choke needs to be adapted to be less of a show stopper, to require setup, or at least be curable- and it's costs should reflect this.

Leaving it as is just means we'll have this very ugly sacred cow throwing up combat stone walls.

Give SDs aeon, adjust costs and tweak abilities as necessary. Choke, as it is, just is way, way too much of a one sided affair the vast majority of the time.
Gregori2009-11-20 01:28:30
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Nov 19 2009, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Less an expert on Druid combat, and more an observer on a specific Druid's offense, which is what is being touted as the "primary example" here. You know, that would be why I suggested you get some more Druids discussing it!


When you get me to full tiredness usually, sure, I go off to sleep it away. And I leave when you get a couple of those 8s blackouts in a row in on me. Those blackouts can be rough. ohmy.gif



Hmm let's see... Should we take the experience of the primary druid fighting inside of Choke as to how choke affects druid combat... or should we take the experience of druids who haven't fought in choke or barely ever fought in choke as the 'voices of wisdom' as to how choke and passive lust inside of it affects druid combat.

Do you go to your mechanic for medical advice cause he once did his own stitches too?
Lehki2009-11-20 01:28:38
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Nov 19 2009, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When you get me to full tiredness usually, sure, I go off to sleep it away. And I leave when you get a couple of those 8s blackouts in a row in on me. Those blackouts can be rough. ohmy.gif

When I start deepsleeping it's because I'm bored and just want you to bugger off for awhile. No duh it's not going to work in an actual kill, who stays around to fight through sleep attrition when they don't have to?