Unknown2009-11-21 14:52:07
QUOTE (Ixion @ Nov 21 2009, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Um no. I'm talking about shadows released in the room. Not drink.
You have the skill, please peruse AB NIGHT CAULDRON.
You have the skill, please peruse AB NIGHT CAULDRON.
Oh, I see. However, that effect (stops regeneration) was still changed - I think the AB file is just outdated. At least, others have informed me it was. Care to test?!
Unknown2009-11-21 15:18:53
QUOTE (Alacardael! @ Nov 21 2009, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, I see. However, that effect (stops regeneration) was still changed - I think the AB file is just outdated. At least, others have informed me it was. Care to test?!
It is.
Trasse2009-11-21 16:32:59
I'm fine with trading Choke for Aeon as well, but since we lost Succumb, it's really not bad, and I don't really think the admin want cookie-cutter Wiccans. The only classes that have an understandable problem mounting an offense in Choke are warriors and monks. How about we give them both a powercure to cancel out Choke, Aeon, and Sap? 3 power, Alacrity in Athletics, Timeshift in Psymet (acrobats should have no trouble somersaulting out)
Or, we could make it so Choking gets rid of released shadows, mitigating the free passive curing for at least a turn, and making it less spammable if they get out?
Or, we could make it so Choking gets rid of released shadows, mitigating the free passive curing for at least a turn, and making it less spammable if they get out?
Kelysa2009-11-21 16:42:03
Wouldn't be so bad if there was just a cure. Wouldn't even have to be an easy cure or a way to end it. Cleanse the shadows or something. >_> Passive paralysis and stuff means it would probably still fail half the time.
Unknown2009-11-21 16:47:53
I don't really want to see more cleanse cures. Balance and equilibrium are more painful to lose than some herb or elixir balance. If I can't move out of the room, chances are pretty good that I can cleanse, either.
Just to reiterate my earlier statements for Sadhyra, I don't think the multiple curing balances are so much a problem as the many, many special cases with which we have to deal. There are so many things that prevent so many actions, some of them so situational that they're nearly impossible to track (e.g., Octave), that a combat system gets very complex very fast in order to handle all of this.
Just to reiterate my earlier statements for Sadhyra, I don't think the multiple curing balances are so much a problem as the many, many special cases with which we have to deal. There are so many things that prevent so many actions, some of them so situational that they're nearly impossible to track (e.g., Octave), that a combat system gets very complex very fast in order to handle all of this.
Unknown2009-11-21 16:54:46
That goes in with the various balances as part of the overall "complex" combat. Lusternia is, point blank, the most complex MUD I've ever seen.
Xenthos2009-11-21 17:40:51
QUOTE (Ixion @ Nov 21 2009, 09:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Um no. I'm talking about shadows released in the room. Not drink.
You have the skill, please peruse AB NIGHT CAULDRON.
You have the skill, please peruse AB NIGHT CAULDRON.
Yeah, it stopping regeneration was (supposed to be) changed a very long time ago now...
Unknown2009-11-21 18:26:24
Released shadows do not stop regeneration anymore. I envoyed it way back, heh. And it's still that way to this day.
Trasse2009-11-21 18:36:17
Could also just make it so Choke ends immediately after being separated from the caster. Tumbling out being a guaranteed cure would probably satisfy a large number of players.
The problem with complaints about Choke in regards to combat accessibility though, is that it's not really that powerful in big group battles that are the norm in real combat. Sure it can be frustrating one on one, but the same can be said of Druid passives, where your choices are fighting in demesne, or lame your way to a stalemate. If I choke someone in a typical group battle, the smart fighters will instagib me. Being choked myself, it's not like I'm going to outpace with curing, I'll die, and the choke ends. I think the change to Chokemesne two years ago has made it a much less viable tactic in all the combative conflicts that actually affect the playerbase at large.
The problem with complaints about Choke in regards to combat accessibility though, is that it's not really that powerful in big group battles that are the norm in real combat. Sure it can be frustrating one on one, but the same can be said of Druid passives, where your choices are fighting in demesne, or lame your way to a stalemate. If I choke someone in a typical group battle, the smart fighters will instagib me. Being choked myself, it's not like I'm going to outpace with curing, I'll die, and the choke ends. I think the change to Chokemesne two years ago has made it a much less viable tactic in all the combative conflicts that actually affect the playerbase at large.
Fern2009-11-21 18:58:03
QUOTE (Trasse @ Nov 21 2009, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Could also just make it so Choke ends immediately after being separated from the caster. Tumbling out being a guaranteed cure would probably satisfy a large number of players.
The problem with complaints about Choke in regards to combat accessibility though, is that it's not really that powerful in big group battles that are the norm in real combat. Sure it can be frustrating one on one, but the same can be said of Druid passives, where your choices are fighting in demesne, or lame your way to a stalemate. If I choke someone in a typical group battle, the smart fighters will instagib me. Being choked myself, it's not like I'm going to outpace with curing, I'll die, and the choke ends. I think the change to Chokemesne two years ago has made it a much less viable tactic in all the combative conflicts that actually affect the playerbase at large.
The problem with complaints about Choke in regards to combat accessibility though, is that it's not really that powerful in big group battles that are the norm in real combat. Sure it can be frustrating one on one, but the same can be said of Druid passives, where your choices are fighting in demesne, or lame your way to a stalemate. If I choke someone in a typical group battle, the smart fighters will instagib me. Being choked myself, it's not like I'm going to outpace with curing, I'll die, and the choke ends. I think the change to Chokemesne two years ago has made it a much less viable tactic in all the combative conflicts that actually affect the playerbase at large.
(main point)
I am going to disagree with you. Group combat happens, yes, but most of the combat tends to happen in little spurts, and the large groups come after somebody dies. The problem with choke is not its functionality in large group combat. A shadowdancer would have to be suicidal to use it in a large group. Its problem is one on one, and other smaller combat situations, as that is really the only time you see it used.
(tangent)
And, I'm not trying to be rude, but do you really think the little one, two, and three man raids that happen aren't affecting the playerbase at large? They may not be taking down avatars or supernals, but it's debilitating to player morale to see names constantly popping up in your logs as "Person has slain mob that is loyal to you." People don't quit over the big raids that happen every once in a while. Little things add up over time and eventually, you just get worn down.
Xenthos2009-11-21 19:05:30
QUOTE (Fern @ Nov 21 2009, 01:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(main point)
I am going to disagree with you. Group combat happens, yes, but most of the combat tends to happen in little spurts, and the large groups come after somebody dies. The problem with choke is not its functionality in large group combat. A shadowdancer would have to be suicidal to use it in a large group. Its problem is one on one, and other smaller combat situations, as that is really the only time you see it used.
I am going to disagree with you. Group combat happens, yes, but most of the combat tends to happen in little spurts, and the large groups come after somebody dies. The problem with choke is not its functionality in large group combat. A shadowdancer would have to be suicidal to use it in a large group. Its problem is one on one, and other smaller combat situations, as that is really the only time you see it used.
This sounds familiar.
Trasse2009-11-21 19:06:41
QUOTE (Fern @ Nov 21 2009, 01:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(main point)
I am going to disagree with you. Group combat happens, yes, but most of the combat tends to happen in little spurts, and the large groups come after somebody dies. The problem with choke is not its functionality in large group combat. A shadowdancer would have to be suicidal to use it in a large group. Its problem is one on one, and other smaller combat situations, as that is really the only time you see it used.
(tangent)
And, I'm not trying to be rude, but do you really think the little one, two, and three man raids that happen aren't affecting the playerbase at large? They may not be taking down avatars or supernals, but it's debilitating to player morale to see names constantly popping up in your logs as "Person has slain mob that is loyal to you." People don't quit over the big raids that happen every once in a while. Little things add up over time and eventually, you just get worn down.
I am going to disagree with you. Group combat happens, yes, but most of the combat tends to happen in little spurts, and the large groups come after somebody dies. The problem with choke is not its functionality in large group combat. A shadowdancer would have to be suicidal to use it in a large group. Its problem is one on one, and other smaller combat situations, as that is really the only time you see it used.
(tangent)
And, I'm not trying to be rude, but do you really think the little one, two, and three man raids that happen aren't affecting the playerbase at large? They may not be taking down avatars or supernals, but it's debilitating to player morale to see names constantly popping up in your logs as "Person has slain mob that is loyal to you." People don't quit over the big raids that happen every once in a while. Little things add up over time and eventually, you just get worn down.
If you're talking about little scuffles, I can't really voice an opinion, as I dislike being part of gank squads as much as I dislike being on the receiving end. It's taken me this long to accept them as inevitable, heh. I was under the impression that having to re-summon avatars and rebuilding after massive power-drains or chopfests was the main problem (speaking of which, I agree the totem system should be re-done, it's kind of annoying). If I'm wrong, then I stand by my opinion that being more able to tumble and run from fights one doesn't want to be in is a fair suggestion if the Powers that Be decide Choke needs another nerf.
Unknown2009-11-21 21:50:12
I don't want to see a 3p cure to a 5p sap. Thanks.
Murphy2009-11-22 01:42:24
QUOTE (Ixion @ Nov 22 2009, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You take me back bud.. my hands haven't shaken from an intense fight in probably 2 or so years..
Oh BTW, if I die in any enemy terr right now I lose 2.05 MILLION essence minimum, even if hunting. Only fools raid now without having a significant advantage (aka zerg). It's rather tragic.
Oh BTW, if I die in any enemy terr right now I lose 2.05 MILLION essence minimum, even if hunting. Only fools raid now without having a significant advantage (aka zerg). It's rather tragic.
Which is my point excatly. There is no room these days for a 4-5 man raid, get in quick, hit something and fight your way out. One shadowdancer follows you and drops choke on you, then you're screwed. The aeon spam was tough but dealing with uncurable choke? Jesus no wonder there are no more tactical raids. And such big xp loss too, ouch.
Unknown2009-11-22 01:47:14
QUOTE (Murphy @ Nov 22 2009, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Which is my point excatly. There is no room these days for a 4-5 man raid, get in quick, hit something and fight your way out. One shadowdancer follows you and drops choke on you, then you're screwed. The aeon spam was tough but dealing with uncurable choke? Jesus no wonder there are no more tactical raids. And such big xp loss too, ouch.
One shadowdancer alone dropping Choke on a 4-5 man group? The Shadowdancer would be screwed. Choke was changed to only affect target and caster, not the room itself. The ability is good in one on one, but absolutely suicidal on a group fight larger than 3.
Malarious2009-11-22 02:57:57
QUOTE (Ixion @ Nov 21 2009, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You take me back bud.. my hands haven't shaken from an intense fight in probably 2 or so years..
Oh BTW, if I die in any enemy terr right now I lose 2.05 MILLION essence minimum, even if hunting. Only fools raid now without having a significant advantage (aka zerg). It's rather tragic.
Edit: Hmm streamlining. A good start would be to reduce easily abusive maneuvers.
-I'd start with shieldstun, which I would say was never accounted for at demigod level. Higher str means longer stun, and classes who wield shields have lower strength traditionally, but demigods of those classes throws it off balance with their access to very high strength. I presonally don't get why headslam is grossly worse than shieldstun. 'nuff said.
-Choke, all the reasons I can think of have been said countless times. It needs to be changed period. Not nerfed, changed (I personally like the scrub cure idea, kudos to whomever suggested it.)
-Combine similar afflictions (the wiki has a good list, it's pretty simple to look at them and smush some together) not needed really, but it would make system building slightly easier and reduce layers of curing minorly. Again, not a big thing.
It was raised some things need be different, like peace and pacifism with diff cures
-Broken record for 5 years and counting, but I still think the commune totem power passive gain is just absurd, unbalanced, and only causes pain on all sides from chopping.
I would add in domoths giving power at all, since any power gain leads to ascendants leads to uber demi leads to fearaura whoring leads to one sided fights again. Domoths were a decent idea (like greathouse) but dont work well.
-Shadows in the room stopping all other org regen is too powerful and impacting. Regen is a huge thing, particularly when chasing curing on instakills that require certain h/m/e levels. Absurd. That's the same of thousands of damage in mere seconds if several are in the room.
agreed
-I think DMP across the board needs a review, some classes get nearly zero DMP of any kind, whereas some can get insane DMP irregardless of race.
also true.. as a bard I have low DMP (elasticity is not real dmp to those who dont know) but as night or moon I guarantee 40 to magic/physical/poison with totems and nightkiss/drawdown and garb/aura.
Oh BTW, if I die in any enemy terr right now I lose 2.05 MILLION essence minimum, even if hunting. Only fools raid now without having a significant advantage (aka zerg). It's rather tragic.
Edit: Hmm streamlining. A good start would be to reduce easily abusive maneuvers.
-I'd start with shieldstun, which I would say was never accounted for at demigod level. Higher str means longer stun, and classes who wield shields have lower strength traditionally, but demigods of those classes throws it off balance with their access to very high strength. I presonally don't get why headslam is grossly worse than shieldstun. 'nuff said.
-Choke, all the reasons I can think of have been said countless times. It needs to be changed period. Not nerfed, changed (I personally like the scrub cure idea, kudos to whomever suggested it.)
-Combine similar afflictions (the wiki has a good list, it's pretty simple to look at them and smush some together) not needed really, but it would make system building slightly easier and reduce layers of curing minorly. Again, not a big thing.
It was raised some things need be different, like peace and pacifism with diff cures
-Broken record for 5 years and counting, but I still think the commune totem power passive gain is just absurd, unbalanced, and only causes pain on all sides from chopping.
I would add in domoths giving power at all, since any power gain leads to ascendants leads to uber demi leads to fearaura whoring leads to one sided fights again. Domoths were a decent idea (like greathouse) but dont work well.
-Shadows in the room stopping all other org regen is too powerful and impacting. Regen is a huge thing, particularly when chasing curing on instakills that require certain h/m/e levels. Absurd. That's the same of thousands of damage in mere seconds if several are in the room.
agreed
-I think DMP across the board needs a review, some classes get nearly zero DMP of any kind, whereas some can get insane DMP irregardless of race.
also true.. as a bard I have low DMP (elasticity is not real dmp to those who dont know) but as night or moon I guarantee 40 to magic/physical/poison with totems and nightkiss/drawdown and garb/aura.
I have sent estarra some basic streamline suggests I am fairly sure no one will really argue, like the quicksilver thing so system can easier track quicksilver.
Choke delaying fae is actually a genuinely useful idea, as is a sap cure... I would say leaving the room should entirely cure it without worryin of chase, but that would really deflate SD combat.
Shadows release needs be a longer eq, shadows should fade on move (so you cant prep large areas), etc
Xenthos2009-11-22 03:01:36
QUOTE (Malarious @ Nov 21 2009, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Stuff.
I note that you "agreed" to something that was already pointed out as being incorrect and false information. :/
Unknown2009-11-22 03:05:02
Again, shadows released in a room does not prevent non-Night or non-Crow regeneration. As for the power gain, sure, as long as we also get our a self-respawning power area in organization territory.
Unknown2009-11-22 03:13:55
While we're at it, what's cauldron release, totem power, drink, DMP, and whatever else have to do with streamlining combat? You guys are just going off a 'I am annoyed by these things: *stuff*' tangent.
And oh god, how many times do we have to say that released shadows no longer work that way?
And oh god, how many times do we have to say that released shadows no longer work that way?
Xenthos2009-11-22 03:26:52
I think removing Blackout would actually be a pretty good thing to do to streamline combat. I mean, in blackout you also have to code your system completely differently to figure out what's happening, diagnose, go on the defensive, etc. At least, if you've got no allheale balance.
Alternatively, give blackout another cure besides allheale.
Alternatively, give blackout another cure besides allheale.
