I haven't made a really long post in a while, so this was overdue.

Chaos.

Webster’s dictionary defines it as such:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chaos

While it typically simply means a lack of order or predictability, its origins come from ancient Greek, where it functionally referred to the initial state of the universe- abyss, etc, and being antithetical to “cosmos”.

But, what does it mean in relation to Gaudiguch?

On cursory inspection, we have the debatable feel of the gaudi/hallifax opposition. While a debatable feel, it naturally lends itself to an assumption of order vs. chaos, though one which can be readily debated, as was happening in Twits.

However, we can scratch the surface far deeper than a “feel”.

Let’s take a look at some fun little parallels that can be drawn surrounding Gaudi!

“Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”. The one law. The statement expounded upon by Scuchi in her farewell post to Gaudiguch in fact! A statement that is also a direct dictum from the philosophy/religion of Thelema. The spirit of this sentiment is sometimes said to be the essence of “do whatever you like, your right to do so only stops when it impedes someone else’s ability to do the same”.

The work of Aleister Crowley is important to “modern” Thelema, and it draws from both Eastern and Western philosophies and mysticism. While often interpreted as a salute to hedonism, Crowley’s Thelema is intended to be a path to spiritual development.

This relates to Gaudiguch in the most obvious manner. While the hedonism of its roleplay is screamingly apparent (literally at times!), it also contains strong Confucian/philosophical elements and a significant element of self-enlightenment. Indeed, from the Help Gaudiguch file, we have:



Thus, Gaudi seems to occupy both the good and the bad of the thing.

Of course, delving a little deeper, we can take a look at a few elements of the mysticism of Thelema, and come up with even more parallels. We’ll start with the one that’s been with us for a long while:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tree_of_life_wk_02.jpg

The names in the Tree of Life look familiar? Of course, that skillset is available to everyone. None the less, it speaks to the acknowledgement of inspiration.

More specifically to Gaudiguch, two elements of Thelemic mysticism stand out- the path to enlightenment contains milestones that include crossing the abyss, and confronting “the dweller in the abyss” (arguably analogous to the vortex, as explained shortly) and in doing so, entering The City of the Pyramids. (duh.)

Now, looking at the abyss reference, we can examine Crawley’s commentary to support the analogy.



This, interestingly, can serve as a valid description of what you find on the plane of Vortex, as well as in the nexus world of the Flame (especially the “formless entities” in the latter).

Another interesting parallel!

From Ovid’s Metamorphoses:


Again, strong similarities to what we see “physically” on the plane of Vortex. Interesting hmm? Not only that, but the general "feel" of it matches fairly well against Crawley's description of the Dweller.

Ultimately, if any organization is going to be associated with chaos, Gaudi is easily the best candidate, at least in the classical sense of the word. If you’re going to stop your analysis at “absence of order”, well, you could hammer any org to fit that definition, save maybe Celest. (and even then you could probably do it if you really wanted to).

Chaos brings false Gaudiguchians.

That's deep.

This is something I am very much confused about. What is with all the references to a "strong Confucian" elements?

Confucianism focuses entirely ON social order. Which is the completely opposite of this! The only thing which I would think people can even vaguely suggest is the notion of "Confucius say..." where people try to pretend to be esoteric with cryptic phrases. I would argue that Gaudiguch is far more Taoist in philosophy -- but that is just me!

Yes, but Taoism does also imply a high sense of order - the natural order which is ingrained instinctively in nature.

I don't know your background, but the sort of order suggested by Confucianism is the same type of order suggested by Western anarchists. Relationships > Loyalty > Honor > Effectiveness > Life > Law ( > Individualism, but the anarchists don't want that last point included). I know that order is maintained in very different ways in Eastern countries, but here, you can pretty much run that in the exact opposite order.

Hmm, I like this sorta thing. It's neat to look at, read through, and put together.


And it makes me wish illuminati were out already.

Admittedly, I am not an expert on Confucianism -- all I have in terms of knowledge is readings from classes -- but I just still don't see it. Maybe I am just getting caught up on the idea that this Confucian-theme is a part of the "Chaos" motif of Gaudiguch.

I am stuck because I can easily see Confucianism being related to Hallifax, also: we should have righteous, honorable behavior between fellow city members (Five Bonds and li), and possess love, goodness, etc. thereby loving/respecting one another (jen). In reference to the "Ruler to subject" aspect of the Five Bonds, we act harmoniously between one another for the greater good of the state. Our personal relationships and interactions reflect connecting together to create a social order which we can all benefit from. Furthermore, work is ritual and based on our work, we recognize our superiors and inferiors, and we work with both to ensure a smoothly functioning society. Also, of course, the notes of meritocracy, and almost, in some sense, feudalism, in Hallifax seem to make sense here too!

What I am saying is that I think Chaos, in itself, negates the idea of Confucianism (perhaps not completely, but Chaos can disrupt the harmony of the people!). Anarchy isn't arguing for the cause of Chaos, but for a humanistic world-order (however, I am not read much on anarchy, this is largely my interpretation). Gaudiguch could completely be a Confucian-style society, but once the influence of "Chaos" is present then, how Confucianism was described to me, the people are not following the li principles.



Hmm, I think I could agree here. I think I was trying to get into the more mystical aspects of Taoism, less on the philo-religious, and focusing on enlightenment in that sense. Since the true Tao is not able to be defined, natural order is limitless in what it could be. There is potential and mutability to progress in any way it wishes. From here, I see Gaudiguch having an almost an organic sense of transhumanism -- defying the barriers of the flesh to become the cosmic trueness that the natural order possesses.

------

Sorry if any of this doesn't make sense; and thank you for helping me understand this better!

The big catch in all that is that Confucianism is almost straight up anti-law. I'm guessing from your response that you're from the Western world yourself. Could you imagine trying to maintain Western civilization based on ideas of doing well and not screwing people over with no real recourse against violators that isn't enforced with threat of violence? Ha. Ha ha.

Hallifax, in contrast, is almost pure law. You catch whiffs of Hinduism and Judaism there, both of which are highly resistant to any sort of Confucian influence. There's just no shared language or ideal.

heh heh heh. He said "in the enemy rear"

Pish. I don't see Stalin reminding the soldiers that those who haven't obtained purity of mind and spirit are not worthy of being regarded as great citizens.

Who do you think is in the Gulags?

Why, the worthy and contributing middle-class combatants of course. The ones who you see here are obviously the ones who have earned the right to stand on the October Square by their studies on the terminal velocity of bullets and the most effective locations to place it inside the enemy to provice a cessation of cerebral physiology.

What a mess this thread is. Rambling on about eastern religions isn't going to give you any insight into Gaudiguch or Hallifax.

Hallifax values order, and Gaudiguch values freedom. Hallifax achieves order by placing the law above all else - the people are subject to the law and not the other way around. Individuals are limited in what they can do, but as a whole this promotes equality. You could draw a parallel between this and classical liberal philosophy, but I'm not going to bother. Gaudiguch places individuals above the law. That is, they value the creativity and diversity of their populace. This promotes innovation, which they value enough to endure whatever negatives might come along with it (the most prominent of which is a less unified populace and one with more room for social or economic inequalities to develop).

Then again, Hallifax is highly stratified by class, and very much pro-slavery. That doesn't undermine the basic equality, it just means that there are exceptions. Also, no matter how low your standing you can reach the upper echelons through enough hard work.

I don't think either org is consistent enough in its presentation for you to clearly apply labels to them, or for them to be defined as true opposites. The main differences are in the details of social interaction and norms. Maybe once the cosmic guilds are implemented and fleshed out they'll become more well-defined.

Hallifax promotes equality? I think you've inhaled a few too many vapours at the flame, dear Azoth. Please have a look at the Government Caste Legislation Act.

The parallels range from the brazen to the probably coincidental, but it is these parallels that help us to define the intent of the terms in question. In any event, doing so almost inherently gives more insight than:



What amounts to an off-the-cuff opinion.



I find Gaudiguch to be incredibly consistent in its presentation. There's all sorts of things to draw on and look at, which is one of the more admirable aspects of these new orgs- the vast amount of time that obiviously went into their secretive creation.

I assume no less of Hallifax, but since my main is in Gaudi, I don't exactly spend lots of time there.

I don't want to start rambling, because it's a habit of mine. All I'll say is that so long as Gaudiguch doesn't become the "Do what I want, and you can't tell me otherwise because I'm free" capital of Lusternia, it will be a great place. So far I've seen little in the way of problems aside from someone running around with Magnagorans to cause trouble.

I don't see much of Hallifax, but they tend to argue too much about interpretation. I think if Lusternia were IRL, Hallifax would be the last place I'd want to live in. They seem to stick to the letter of the law but not the spirit of it, if you get my drift.

Hehe, I think I'd have a lot of fun OOCly in Hallifax, but it so doesn't fit with Akui's personality.

My biggest issue with Gaudiguch is that people seem to think Freedom means "I can do whatever I want cause you can't restrict my individualism"

Followed by "You can't do that it's not nice!"

This is not the case at all. Gaudiguch is a city that has laws and has order. Its laws are geared towards the individual's rights, but it is not lawless. Things like "if it harms the citizens of the city, it is illegal."

I am quickly growing to the opinion that a lot of the people that joined did for three reasons.

1. OMG OP MELD. I CAN FINALLY KILL SOMEONE!
2. I might get 'first' honours lines!
3. Freedom! Yay! I can do whatever I want and nobody can kick me out or tell me off for it like all those other orgs I got chased out of!

I have seen very few people who have actually bothered to scratch the surface of Gaudiguch and look at the surroundings, the denizens, the planes, the culture and adopt to it. Kialkarkea, for all the flaws I find in him in Gaudiguch is probably one of the few people, Akui as well, that has actually delved into the cities deeper meaning.