I actually said that in real life we're NOT on a level playing field, and that's how hacking an account differs from in game theft.

Keeping in mind I'm not talking about this specific event, but in game theft in general:

I guess... I'm hard pressed to argue this more. There's clearly some kind of mud generational gap that we've crossed into, and we just can't see eye to eye. Getting things stolen from you is a harsh lesson, but I'm of the opinion that harsh lessons are the ones that really stick with you. People establish a baseline of awareness and vigilance for themselves. Nothing happens, so people relax more, and get lazy. Sometimes (Or I should say eventually, given a long enough time line) you will get smacked. Someone noticed you were no longer as vigilant, and they exploited that. It's painful. And that pain wakes you up. You'll usually then once again pay more attention, or be more proactive in that area to prevent another painful event.

I find rarely in muds (and Lusternia most of all) that the young are not usually persecuted. Most anyone who is an established player recognizes that truly new players make this world fresh, interesting, and indeed keeps it going, and therefore most players will not take harsh action against them unless exceedingly provoked. Even more so with Lusternia, I can't imagine hearing about any novice being actually robbed. So there's really no "not knowing any better" in this game in my opinion. By the time someone has actually considered robbing you in this game, chances are you're established, have developed bad blood between yourself and them, and they know you've something worthy of stealing. If those things don't exist, generally the worst you'll ever get is a death - which also generally isn't random.

As for triggers, they're not hard to write for anti-theft. There are only a few actions you have to trigger that will cause most all things to fail. And I think that if you and others think that it is hard to write them, it's because theft is so astoundingly uncommon here already that no one trains anyone else in how to prevent it. Someone mentioned Achaea screaming at you for setting anti-theft triggers right away in novicehood. I've been in other muds where it's much the same. They train their newbies to a higher level of vigilance in terms of theft from the get go than we ever do here. It's not even in any sort of advanced combat training programs in any of the guilds I've been in. It's literally a non-issue 99.9999999% of the time.

I'm not even sure why I keep arguing this. I'm not trying to defend the act of theft itself. I've never attempted, nor do I have the desire to, rob another in Lusternia or any other mud I've played - even in those where theft was a valid and often used mechanic condoned by the administration. I've been stripped entirely many times elsewhere. I hate theft. It's annoying, painful, and it makes you feel helpless. I am, however, very much supporting the right to choice. I agree that because we are operating in an artificial world it has to be monitored and sometimes regulated, which Lusternia already does heavily. I may not agree with someone who chooses to try and rob someone - regardless of the target - but I appreciate on an OOC level that the option exists in my world. Again, people with a wide range of goals brings diversity to the game. Diversity is interesting. If everyone thought like me or did what I chose to do, it'd be boring to the point where I wouldn't want to play. Many people play their characters in a way that annoys me or that I can't see a point to them playing that way, but it gives me something to watch, something to investigate, something to ponder, and something to react to.


Technically the second sentence there isn't true. You can be lazy and log 24 hours play time to get auto'd out of novicehood still. You have to have log 300 hours to mentor. Bloodbonding or marriage requires 75 logged hours. Logged in time affects vote weight.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. I agree with your first statement as an overarching problem with AFK'ing, but there are still very much mechanics in the game that you are barred from accessing until you've had so much play time, and with vote weight, you need to maintain a certain amount. (Though once you hit vote weight 10 it's rather hard to go done with even minimum maintenance.)

Saying that they should have been better prepared for it is the easy way out of the issue. It puts the onus on the victim, and nicely washes the hands of everyone else.

The problem I have with theft isn't that there's ways that it can be stopped, but as Anisu said twice and everyone keeps ignoring, there is absolutely nothing you can do about the incident directly during or after it occurs. You can't kill them to get your stuff back. If you don't have similar skills, you can't even try to steal the stuff back. All you get are indirect social/political pressures, which generally turn around and revictimise the person, as this thread has shown. And like it has mentioned, that can severly detract from someone's motivation to play.

Disclaimer: The following post should not be construed as an opinion on this topic. I still think that theft from a person is worse than theft from a shop. I'm not convinced that either should be turned off, but if you were going to pick one to turn off, this would be it.

Anyways!

I see this whole "don't blame the victim" argument being tossed around a lot. However, in a violent, competitive MUD, "blaming the victim" is a perfectly reasonable action. It's an argument that makes sense in every other context.

Problem:
OMFG, I just got ganked because I was AFK.

Solutions:
Code your system better
Don't go AFK

Not solutions:
Increase your DMP by 1 for every second you idle
Nerf your attacker's primary damage skill.

Problem:
It's hard for me to keep up with two non-hindering afflictions every six seconds.

Solutions:
Code a system
Get a system
Type faster and memorize HELP CURELIST

Not solutions:
Cap the number of simultaneous afflictions at two.
Nerf all non-damage classes.

=======

There is an assumption that everyone who plays is either going to make an effort to not fail or is going to tolerate failure and find ways to avoid it. You blame the attacker for picking on those who could not be expected to do well (i.e. newbies). In all other cases, you blame the victim for not playing optimally.

I said this the last time we brought this up, which wasn't that long ago.

Theft that isn't the result of a bug (e.g., phasing through doors) is something that can be prevented, except maybe where a person has a key to your shop and you had no reason to suspect they would rob you blind (a huge trust issue, really). If you take even the most basic of measures, you will not be robbed.

That said, I still agree that theft adds very, very little to the game, especially for all the grief it causes. The irony, I think, is that the people who deserve the grief are the ones who instead dole it out to those who don't deserve it so much. There is no real recourse to get your stuff back or to punish the person who did it because nine times out of ten, they have bigger and/or more friends than you do.

Regarding personal theft, if you think we should protect players more, what would be the solution? As you know, I prefer mechanical solutions rather than requiring admin oversight, especially on something like that. I assume the only way of theft is forcing a person, so I suppose we could disallow forcing drop, give and throw--but I hesitate that would be too restrictive.

Could be as simple as lowering the selfishness skill or something?

Edit: Although to be honest I never saw theft as a huge issue, I'd much rather admins were giving attention to fixing Merians or maybe just going idle and stop hurting Celest with all their events

And break the sacred first law of events? Heretic!

But yes to lowering selfishness. Move it to above satiation, maybe even to above Obliviousness. That way "learn selfishness" is actually something you can suggest without coming of as a jerk.

Never has an event been designed to 'hurt' Celest.

And quit hijacking, both of you.

Again, ignore the prevention issue. Yes, a person should (opperative word) be proactive and try and prevent theft, but that's not the issue I have with it.

There is nothing that you can do directly to react to a theft that gets your stuff back without the person voluntarily giving it up, or stealing it back. The odds of stealing it back - not likely. Not everyone can do it, and the thief no doubt has their own prevention measures. Voluntarily giving it up? Why would they? There's no outside impetus for the action, and social/political appeals are generally fruitless, due to the whole prevention issue.

I'm not against theft necessarily. I'm against the fact that mechanically and socially it generally screws over the victim.

A way to even it out would be do flag items that are forced from one player to another so that they drop on death, and have that flag persist for 30 days, perhaps with something showing up on probe indicating that the item was stolen and who from.

A simpler answer might be just to tie it into the Avenger system and have theft (on prime of course) count the same as killing someone. You don't get your stuff back, but you may get something if they keep coming after you. Admittedly, a harsher solution.

With the shop change, no change is needed.

Honestly, I gotta agree with Ixion, if only because if someone goes afk with something important on them.

I can't imagine the number of times someone has picked up an important quest item, and gone afk and dominate was the only way to get it without smearing the idiot

I agree with lowering selfishness in discipline. That would solve a lot of theft.

This might be slightly off the current topic, but what does everyone think of org theft? Personal theft tends not to amount to anything major, as any non-arties are going to decay anyway (besides trans trade things, which is a touchy issue altogether). From what I understand though, elected leaders have the ability to abscond with hundreds of credits if they so desire. If anything is to be done about theft mechanically, I'd start by preventing this sort of major griefage, since it really does hurt newbies in the victimized org.

As for my two cents on how to mitigate personal theft, maybe do away with the 2% "service fee" on bank accounts, so personal bank accounts actually get used more for safety?

I agree with this. People's choices after being robbed are basically just live with it, or whine OOCly about it.

Divine can and have forced certain individuals to return org financial assets in the past. It's not a big issue overall, having only happened a handful of times in 5 years.

Ah, good to know, thanks! I've got no real qualms about the personal theft issue...Oh, aside from one I just thought of. Can we get a change to Leprechaun? I hate accidentally robbing people in the Arena

Yeah, robbing the guild shop blind is one thing, looting all of your guild's credits is another. Even I haven't sunk quite that low.

Though I'm pretty sure when Furloch made off with all of Magnagora's commodities he got away with it (well, so far as he kept the comms and could never ever leave a safe room).

How does org theft hurt the newbies? Hallifax has very little gold right now and I do not see newbies being hurt by that fact. At worse it means they can not place guards, but for all the other purposes it can be regenerated before it 'hurts'. Not having a credit sale btw, is not hurting an org.

Also a city has an organ of oversight called the patron, if a CL or GM decides to steal everything and the patron notices they may opt to force it back. (If it is small amounts they won't as a lesson to the citizens about who they elect)

Also only the lame orgs permit these people to join, all others will banish them until they give items back. And they will be forced to hide in safe rooms (which divine kick them out of if you bring it to their attention)

I wonder if multi-thousand credit loans from an org that never gets paid back, constitutes as a sort of theft? There's been a couple of those.

Notice how everyone who has stolen large quantities of credits/wares has become inactive. Being labeled as an org thief is pretty much a game ending move for that character.