Questions worth looking at for the sake of finding balance in a new system:

1) What, besides VAs is there to spend power on?
Having almost nothing else to spend power on besides discretionaries and guard clumps has contributed to the glut of power some orgs have been able to muster. Some additional maintenance costs might be in order, and even small things, like having expansion projects require large chunks of nexus power instead of just comms.

2) What is the max power achievable by an org per day, and are there plans to lower it?
Will probably include a revisit to totems vs. statues, but also address any plans to hinder village holdings as was done with domoths. Also consider the 2 new elemental planes with another 74*5 possible power per hour available in the game.

3) Will the new orgs be entitled to a penalty-free catchup?
All four older orgs have raised at least 3, should this be the baseline before maintenance or increased cost to raise penalties kick in for Halli/Gaudi?

4) What is the actual role envisioned for VAs?
It came as news to some that these were envisioned as being figures of the order of Shanth and Tzaraziko, is that being kept, moving forward?

We can look at it sure. I have no idea what you mean by preventing divinefire not to work in PvP. If you mean can the code figure out whether you're in a PvP situation or not is a bit vague so you need to be more specific; however, in general, I really don't like the idea of skills working only while bashing and not while PvP. For example, I would be open to something like you can't put up divinefire with other people in the same room as opposed to you can't use divinefire if someone has made an aggressive action against you in the last 30 seconds.

Iunno, Sham does pretty well as a non Demi. Doesn't even seem like he wants to brind it either.

Currently divine fire will already prevent denizens from attacking you. It also completely heals you every like, 10 seconds or some such. All you'd have to do is remove the cure tic and bam, it only works in bashing, pretty useless in PvP

My problem with Demigod is that it confers benefits that the game is balanced around from an outside point of view. It makes level 100 a requirement if you want to be at the level of power, statistics, etc that your race-class combo are explicitly balanced around. For instance, extra statistics from Titan and Demigod, increased regeneration, summon resistance, the ability to adjust your size at will (the size stat providing you with multiple benefits depending on which end of the spectrum you belong to, which allows you to adjust before a fight just what you will be, regardless of race in question), not to mention divinefire, power refreshment, and the obvious increased health, mana, and ego from being level 100. In the end, the benefits it provides create a level of power that one MUST achieve if they want to be anything but second rate.

My complaint lies in that, and I don't want to drag this discussion off topic, but if you are reviewing end game ENTIRELY, then perhaps you could look at some of these things? Either by making Demigod more achievable, or gaining these benefits somehow else alternatively for those of us that cannot reach that level, or just simply removing the benefits or making it so they are not so obvious in their level of requirement to participate in higher tiers of competitive combat. I myself feel like I need Demigod to be on a fair level statistically with the big boys, or else I will always been multiple steps behind them in terms of raw strength. While I understand that level 100 must confer some kind of perks, I have a personal bone to pick with the idea of those perks becoming more of a necessary set of tools. Anybody who says that increased statistics that you guys take in to account when balancing formulas for damage, etc aren't necessary should probably look in to getting some screws tightened. :/

On the topic of Divinefire, isn't it one of the oft complained about abilities of Demigod? Why not just make it a passive reduction of damage dealt by mobiles not loyal to a player (to prevent, say, a damage-dealing ent from suddenly being useless) - with guards not being effected, obviously? I feel like something of the nature of Divinefire doesn't belong in PK, but that's just my opinion. If it absolutely must stay, perhaps you could consider having it apply a penalty during and after use?

Sure, we could look at doing that. Suggestions that are nice and simple are how we like it!

Well, I do disagree that you MUST be demigod or you'll be second rate. I think there can be (indeed, that there are) non-demigod fighters that are first class even against demigods. In other words, I think the benefits are nice but not required. Some people may believe that the benefits are too nice and I'm fine with looking at lessening them. Be specific when offering suggestions!

I agree with Lehki's suggestion of deleting divinefire as it currently is.

Good idea!



Sure, we can look at totems, villages, etc. If someone wants to offer suggestions, feel free!



I don't like the idea of "penalty-free catchup".



With the advent of the Threshold Abyss, vernals have no access to the Immanidivinus (divine power source) so they cannot arise to the same heights as Shanth or Tzaraziko. Keep in mind, also, that the Nine were the final survivors of the Vernal Wars so they were exceptional among other Vernal Gods.

I thought Lehki suggested modifying divinefire, not deleting it? Did I miss something?

He said "deleting divinefire as it currently is" - the curing tick is a major aspect of divinefire, and indeed the part that makes it useful in PvP (where, of course, the majority of complaints about it come from). I don't think being able to run past guards or not be pwnt by daughter-clots ranks anywhere near that, so while you retain those abilities (and technically only modify the existing divinefire), removing the PvP aspect could indeed be considered deleting divinefire as it currently is.

Heh, lets just call it modifying divinefire and not use exaggerated or dramatic or hotbutton words like "delete" (unless you really are suggesting deletion). Let's try to be cool and collected like Obama!

Don't let the issue be averted. Ascendant remains Demigod++. They tout that it is for RP but Ascendants have major advantages ontop of the Demigod buffs. A demigod is nothing short of a regular person with divinefire. Big deal, they can save themselves once. Sure you have the added stats but my stats give me a little bit more health and abit more damage. This isn't the same for all classes but stats aren't going to save your average Guardian/Druid/Mage/Wiccans. Bards, Warriors, and monks are the ones who see the largest benefits to stats and maybe a mage as we can see with Ceren who gets to be over the top.

The problem with Ascendant is of course the skills. Aegis lets someone who you attach to pretty much never die. I was with Thoros on etherglom and took enough damage to be around 50h. I would sip back up and be shook with enough passive/daughter damage to put me back down to around 50h but I -never- died because of Aegis and because it wasn't followed through with direct damage.

Fearaura is a huge problem as has been stated in multiple reports and the communes are just now getting a taste of what it is like. Even with it balance doesn't mean that its not an issue.

The biggest and most ridiculous part of an Ascendant is that they are 'immortal.' Demigods must keep up their essence, they are limited in how they can defend/get jumped, be attacked, ect or else the suffer a debalitating and perhaps emotional loss of going back to Titan and losing those stats. Ascendants never face this problem and as more are raised, they can further keep their demigod zergs alive by gifting it away. Limiting ascendants cuts back on the Demigod army. And I know opening an essence shop would stop there from being Ascendants with 120 mil plus essence who can easily grant 20 mil to a friend without batting an eye. As it stands orgs with larger ascendants can easily fuel the essence banks of their lesser zerglings who don't bash/die constantly in order to upkeep them while orgs without this benefit have to limit their offense/defense and add in bashing. While Ascendant army can relentlessly throw themselves at Demigod army to their hearts contents, Ascendant army faces no big losses other than a few stinging seconds of a deathsight against them while Demigod army is slowly whittled away from their losses.

And of course you have the whole issue that Ascendants beget more Ascendants. I was with Fain and the kid who posted on his other muds endgame. The more you let people into this thing, the worse it will get in the future. Everyone here sounds so entitled and this is coming from someone who is more than capable of being an ascendant and being just as entitled. You played a wonderful part of the game with wonderful powers that no one else got to have, congrats, take it for what it is worth and bow out for the health of the game and stop being over privileged aholes who try to bully/play the victim to further get your clique to rule.

There is a hard cap on how much extra power having more Ascendants can get you. Beyond that, no matter how many Ascendants you have you cannot get more (edit: power income). Period.

Further, going on and attacking the other side for disagreeing with you is not the way to go.

PS: Demigod is so not just mortal & divinefire. I listed the differences in the other thread, but there is little combat difference between an Ascendant and a Demigod. Fearaura and Aegis is about it as far as PvP goes.

Thanks for pointing out things you feel are imbalancing! Here's what I got:

Divinefire and demigods stats isn't as big a deal as some think. So I take it you think that it shouldn't be modified and it's fine as is.

Aegis is too powerful. Should it be modified? If so, how? Should it be replaced? If so, with what?

Fearaura is too powerful. Should it be modified? If so, how? Should it be replaced? If so, with what?

Ascendants never die. We are still planning on limiting ascendants which sounded like what you think was needed. Should anything else be done?

I always saw Vernalhood as a culmination of every investment someone put into the game and organization as a whole- their organization uniting (or evenly dividing three times over as the case may be...ah, memories) to spend a whole million power to raise someone as a near-immortal representative of their organization. There was always a notable difference between Vernals and regular Demigods because Vernals could never, by definition, be 'run of the mill'. You could newbiekick your way to Demigod if you wanted- getting Vernal mandated your investment and the support of others.

The concept of Alianna being mortal again pisses me off (it throws the 'I am the Goddess Keph manifest' roleplay violently out of the window, smashing into several trees on the way down) but it seems clear that ex-Vernals are going to be...well, something, but NOT Vernals anymore. If that's the case, how can we keep cults? It's a Vernal power.

I also always saw Vernal Ascendants as being connected to the original Vernal Gods as a sort of tribute: Nejii felt closest to Kiakoda, as one example. Much like how Sealbearers developed a sort of roleplay around their Seals, Vernals developed a sort of RP around the Vernal they were closest to in relation. For Alianna, it was Vestera. No more Vernal? That's gone too.

Overall that's my biggest issue with this- if I become a Demi, okay, I can deal with that. But what you're doing is essentially removing one of the most esteemed titles in the game. How can you replicate that without, well, replicating it? Being an Ascendant without being an Ascendant? You could ultimately say my concern isn't the loss of Ascendance as a skillset- it's everything else that comes with it. I could live without Fearaura and Aegis. My bias and sense of entitlement in this issue are fairly obvious, though.

If you maintained the title of "vernal" (and assuming your org removed it from you--remember, it takes just one GM to stop stripping ascendance), what could we include with that title which would help maintain your RP or sense of accomplishment?

I politely disagree with the presented point and would put forth that it isn't as big a deal as compared to certain OTHER issues of the system, but taken aside and looked at in an isolated case, is probably still serious. There are a handful of non-Demi fighters, but the VAST majority of top tier are Demigods. The extra stats, etc are too good. To be honest, why compete at anything except the highest possible yield of statistics when others ARE competing at the highest possible yield of statistics? There are some people that do (hats off), but they are an exception, not a rule. I think that with the toning down or lessening of the benefits of Demigod, we'd see much less of a real issue, mechanically, with Ascendants.

Saying that Demigod isn't required for PK because some people do it without Demigod is akin to saying, ohh.. not to go for surgery and opt for natural treatment or some other nonsense. Is it possible? Sure. Is it as quick, effective, and reliable? Probably not.

Of course Divinefire is annoying for any fighter. You blow some of your most expensive power moves and then boom, someone averts it with a daily skill. That happens, work around it, expect it and stop it. Sleeping the target does wonders and both sides have access to sleeplockers. Not only that but divinefire cures insomnia so the the legit tactic is just to spam sleep in the target until divinefire or monolith and pit every direction so that way they can't pogo/ascend out. But it is once per day thing and is what makes Demigod worth being.

I wouldn't know what to suggest for Aegis/fearaura other than the fact that Fearaura tics are dependent on the number of ascendants in the room, meaning like old avatar aura/wrath, you can get hit with it 4-5 times depending how many enemies you face. That is a good and simple change to limit it like avatar aura/wrath. Aegis can be limited by limiting the number of people able to cast it. Fighting an entire organization who is under aegis is rough business when both sides are doling out passive/active damage but one side is completely immune to death by passive or every 'soft' target is directly tied to the fate of a much larger and more difficult target. You are on the right track limiting ascendants to get rid of these gamebreakers anyway.

Finally, the last note was the immortality of it. You have an entire group who are immune to suffering meaningful essence loss because not only can they never lose their cool stats/powers, but they also can suffer enemy territory deaths to no consquence and can bolster the essence of their demigod lessers if they need to. The problem is there is no fear for one side of death/loss which gives them the upper hand in no only mechanics of being able to relentlessly raid/defend without fear of loss but also a huge morale boost that says 'hey that guy is untouchable and no matter how much damage I do to him, he will always be that way.' Compare this to the opposite notion of 'hey so and so is at the bottom of the Demigod totem scale, lets make his life a living hell till he hits titan' which can huge effects for both the attackers who can achieve such a victory and the defender who can risk such a loss. Do you see the point of what I am saying, Estarra? Ascendant goes beyond just the mechanics of the powers it has but it feeds the organization both power, morale, and this sense of immortality when all of its fighters or 'nonfighters' who find themselves 'special.'

How much would hit and run raids stop if you had 2 ascendants and the Ascendants turned demigods had to pay their own cost to stay 'divine'. 2 or 3 ascendants can't back up an org of 20 or so lesser demigods, but 7 ascendants surely can.

On the topic of actual solutions to my biggest complaint: roll the stats in to the races selectively, or just get rid of them altogether. I see no reason why extra statistics should be a reward for a PvE 'achievement' (however small of one it honestly is) - especially when those statistics then, honestly, provide no actual use afterwards besides to be used in a PvP setting. Providing PvP tools via a PvE setting seems sort of awkward and unnecessary.