Unknown2010-03-23 13:21:35
Ok, now that I have some sleep under me:
Losing all demi perks and having to re-buy them is utterly pointless. All it does is throw a grind at our feet, purely for the sake of a grind. Depending on the costs involved, we would simply be back to where we are right now in X amount of time. So, all that will happen is the population will be stratified in terms of ability as a function of how fast people can gain essence, and then slowly re-adjust to the current status quo.
Bashing to demigod was more than enough of a "leveling" wall. We needn't make it any higher. If we're talking about combat accessibility, all it does is make it even more intimidating.
As to specific abilities:
Divine Fire: Change it, remove it, whatever. This ability seems to be where the big problem comes from. And even then, the problem results from individuals intentionally getting into a certain death situation while doing something "greefy" then bailing out with DF. This is the problem most people have with demigod, if only because it is the most pronounced application of demigod abilities. Personally, DF to me is "this person is probably leaving now, mission accomplished" thing, and doesn't bother me when kick and run people escape with it, but I can see how it would be aggrivating to people more focused around the kill itself.
Stat increases: These should not be touched. Archetypes, specifically knights, have been based around these stats at demigod. Since attaining demigod, I can build wounds effectively again- something that I haven't able to do since before the change to warrior forumula/stats from like a year and a half ago. For example, I like to run around as Orclach, which has base 15 str and 13 dex. With size changing, I can get the strength up to where I need it to be, and keep the middling dexterity so that I can land the wounds I need to land. There's too much complication tied into the system based around stats at demigod at this point, so unless we're willing to revamp the entire thing all at once, messing with these stat increases is a Pandora's box. Generally, provoking the law of unintended consequences when it's not necessary just isn't a great plan.
Regeneration: Like stat increases, the modest regeneration is a subtle perk of demigod. Not something that's having a large impact on game balance- these were already toned way down for that reason. Unlike stat increases, changing them wouldn't really muck a lot of stuff up, other than to make damage/mana/ego kills slightly easier. In my opinion? Damage/mana/ego kills do NOT need to be any easier.
Refresh: I haven't really heard many complaints about this one, though it is a rather strong ability in its own right. I believe the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Custom zaps/shouts: Regarding the custom nature, especially on the shouts. These are fun things. I like seeing people's custom shouts and what they do with them. They give personality to the demigod (far more than some selection of perks that mostly only the player selecting them would really notice). If these were removed, there are probably plenty of people who have them who just wouldn't re-buy them, so we'd have more generic messages flying around. Not to mention, people who DO buy them would have to go through the approval process again. I don't see any reason touch these, other than the same bizzare argument of "making a higher experience wall fixes a problem that may well not even exist in the first place".
Zap: Most of the time, its pretty innocous, a fun little thing you can do. Personally, I've only ever zapped my friends, because the messages are fun. I know they can get dangerous when they're coordinated but... that's not anything unique to zap by any means, is it?
In summary, taking away abilities just to have people grind them back at an essense shop doesn't solve anything to begin with. The only thing it accomplishes is making things even harder to balance in the short run, as the population is skewed all over the place ability wise, and in the long run, it does nothing but impose a bit of frustration. It feels strongly like taking a back-door approach to the essence shop that, by all accounts, isn't on the table.
Look at the abilities that are causing problems, and fix those abilities. Sweeping, across the board changes are using a shovel to perform heart surgery. Not the right tool for the job.
Not coincidentally, the same is true of Ascendance. Fix what is causing what the admin view as the problem- but also remember that ascendants are inherently a different issue than Demigods just by virtue of how they are obtained, and so should always be looked at in that light.
Losing all demi perks and having to re-buy them is utterly pointless. All it does is throw a grind at our feet, purely for the sake of a grind. Depending on the costs involved, we would simply be back to where we are right now in X amount of time. So, all that will happen is the population will be stratified in terms of ability as a function of how fast people can gain essence, and then slowly re-adjust to the current status quo.
Bashing to demigod was more than enough of a "leveling" wall. We needn't make it any higher. If we're talking about combat accessibility, all it does is make it even more intimidating.
As to specific abilities:
Divine Fire: Change it, remove it, whatever. This ability seems to be where the big problem comes from. And even then, the problem results from individuals intentionally getting into a certain death situation while doing something "greefy" then bailing out with DF. This is the problem most people have with demigod, if only because it is the most pronounced application of demigod abilities. Personally, DF to me is "this person is probably leaving now, mission accomplished" thing, and doesn't bother me when kick and run people escape with it, but I can see how it would be aggrivating to people more focused around the kill itself.
Stat increases: These should not be touched. Archetypes, specifically knights, have been based around these stats at demigod. Since attaining demigod, I can build wounds effectively again- something that I haven't able to do since before the change to warrior forumula/stats from like a year and a half ago. For example, I like to run around as Orclach, which has base 15 str and 13 dex. With size changing, I can get the strength up to where I need it to be, and keep the middling dexterity so that I can land the wounds I need to land. There's too much complication tied into the system based around stats at demigod at this point, so unless we're willing to revamp the entire thing all at once, messing with these stat increases is a Pandora's box. Generally, provoking the law of unintended consequences when it's not necessary just isn't a great plan.
Regeneration: Like stat increases, the modest regeneration is a subtle perk of demigod. Not something that's having a large impact on game balance- these were already toned way down for that reason. Unlike stat increases, changing them wouldn't really muck a lot of stuff up, other than to make damage/mana/ego kills slightly easier. In my opinion? Damage/mana/ego kills do NOT need to be any easier.
Refresh: I haven't really heard many complaints about this one, though it is a rather strong ability in its own right. I believe the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Custom zaps/shouts: Regarding the custom nature, especially on the shouts. These are fun things. I like seeing people's custom shouts and what they do with them. They give personality to the demigod (far more than some selection of perks that mostly only the player selecting them would really notice). If these were removed, there are probably plenty of people who have them who just wouldn't re-buy them, so we'd have more generic messages flying around. Not to mention, people who DO buy them would have to go through the approval process again. I don't see any reason touch these, other than the same bizzare argument of "making a higher experience wall fixes a problem that may well not even exist in the first place".
Zap: Most of the time, its pretty innocous, a fun little thing you can do. Personally, I've only ever zapped my friends, because the messages are fun. I know they can get dangerous when they're coordinated but... that's not anything unique to zap by any means, is it?
In summary, taking away abilities just to have people grind them back at an essense shop doesn't solve anything to begin with. The only thing it accomplishes is making things even harder to balance in the short run, as the population is skewed all over the place ability wise, and in the long run, it does nothing but impose a bit of frustration. It feels strongly like taking a back-door approach to the essence shop that, by all accounts, isn't on the table.
Look at the abilities that are causing problems, and fix those abilities. Sweeping, across the board changes are using a shovel to perform heart surgery. Not the right tool for the job.
Not coincidentally, the same is true of Ascendance. Fix what is causing what the admin view as the problem- but also remember that ascendants are inherently a different issue than Demigods just by virtue of how they are obtained, and so should always be looked at in that light.
Unknown2010-03-23 18:37:07
Guh because my improved idea got moved to the demigod/stats thread.
Having slept on it some more, I've decided I like Rodngar's idea, therefore, I'm shamelessly ripping it off and adding it on to my own.
With the addition of Rodngar's ideas, this also helps further avoid a majority of the imbalances associated with demi because it literally makes it impossible for a demi to have their cake and eat it too. For example, +str and sizechange ability can cost 5 spark each, and if a demi wanted to be that 'broken', they will have to give up everything else about a demigod.
Having slept on it some more, I've decided I like Rodngar's idea, therefore, I'm shamelessly ripping it off and adding it on to my own.
QUOTE
DEMIGODS:
1. When a player reaches level 100, they become a demigod, all they get is the health, mana, etc. befitting someone of that level and the appropriate crit rate. Well, and the ability to phoenix/essence levels. They also get a spark meter of 10 (just making up a number, don't freak), which will be explained below.
2. All demigod powers and stats will be purchasable for essence (in an essence shop). You have to buy zap, ascend, seek, divinefire, etc. in order to use them, this encourages the individual to have to work to get their leet pk skills. You can only buy stats once, and they are separated, i.e. you have to purchase +con, then buy +str, and so on. Of course, there will also be neat RP things like the second tradeskill you can buy here. All of the powers purchasable with essence will have a corresponding spark requirement, ranging from 0-10. RP related abilities generally will cost 0 spark, while crazy awesome pk related abilities will cost 3-5 or something like that.
PARAGONS AND ASCENDANCE:
1. Ascendance as it is should be separated into base skills and spec skills. Paragons, which I'll talk about right below can only learn base ascendance, while Vernal Ascendants can learn base and spec ascendance. Base ascendance is composed of cult skills only, spec ascendance will be composed of everything else.
1. A mortal can be ascended (for 500k+ power?) into a...we'll call it Paragon after the discussions. Paragons simply become the aforementioned demigods (no domoth bonuses or anything) who cannot lose demihood as well as an addition of "base Ascendance". When a Paragon dies with 0 essence, they cost their org power. There can be as many of these as you want with the stipulation that it will be costlier each time you make a paragon. You can also give paragons a free orgbix if they don't have one already if you wish. Paragons also get a spark meter of 10.
2. Paragons can then be ascended for 1 mil+ power to become vernal ascendants. There can only one of these per org. All vernal ascendants get are the 'standard' demigod powers for free (won't have to buy them from the essence shop), base/spec ascendance, and domoth bonuses. VA's get a spark meter of 15. Both Paragons and VA's then gain access to further RP/nexus-related purchasable abilities if it's allowed.
3. To make the transition smooth, all current VA's become Paragons, then from there, one of them can be elected to VA again. TA's are the same as VA's under this system.
SPARKS:
1. All demigods, paragons, and VA/TA's get a spark meter. For this example's sake, demigods and paragons get a total spark meter of 10, while VA/TA's get 15.
2. All purchasable (with essence) powers have a spark requirement, ranging from 0-10. Generally, RP/cool/custom abilities need 0 spark, while pk related/borderline broken abilities require 3-5.
3. You can reset your invested powers in exchange for essence, demi wackodoru.
4. This system gives the demigod the chance to tailor themselves to the situation/RP they wish, while at the same time avoiding the argument that eventually a demi with enough time will just be as broken as they were under the old system, i.e. the 'time delayed status quo'.
I really like this idea because it accomplishes many things at once: those who were rewarded with VA for serving their org still get a shiny status and have the chance to participate in the essence shop idea without being totally broken with ascendance skills/domoth bonuses yet still have the RP utility of cults. This also solves the idea of VA remaining special since there can only be 6 VA's total under this system. This also happens to nerf insta-demis because it makes them have to spend essence to get all their lame broken skills. In essence, I want to remove the idea that demigod = pker. The accompanying stats/abilities that can be purchased can be adjusted accordingly.
1. When a player reaches level 100, they become a demigod, all they get is the health, mana, etc. befitting someone of that level and the appropriate crit rate. Well, and the ability to phoenix/essence levels. They also get a spark meter of 10 (just making up a number, don't freak), which will be explained below.
2. All demigod powers and stats will be purchasable for essence (in an essence shop). You have to buy zap, ascend, seek, divinefire, etc. in order to use them, this encourages the individual to have to work to get their leet pk skills. You can only buy stats once, and they are separated, i.e. you have to purchase +con, then buy +str, and so on. Of course, there will also be neat RP things like the second tradeskill you can buy here. All of the powers purchasable with essence will have a corresponding spark requirement, ranging from 0-10. RP related abilities generally will cost 0 spark, while crazy awesome pk related abilities will cost 3-5 or something like that.
PARAGONS AND ASCENDANCE:
1. Ascendance as it is should be separated into base skills and spec skills. Paragons, which I'll talk about right below can only learn base ascendance, while Vernal Ascendants can learn base and spec ascendance. Base ascendance is composed of cult skills only, spec ascendance will be composed of everything else.
1. A mortal can be ascended (for 500k+ power?) into a...we'll call it Paragon after the discussions. Paragons simply become the aforementioned demigods (no domoth bonuses or anything) who cannot lose demihood as well as an addition of "base Ascendance". When a Paragon dies with 0 essence, they cost their org power. There can be as many of these as you want with the stipulation that it will be costlier each time you make a paragon. You can also give paragons a free orgbix if they don't have one already if you wish. Paragons also get a spark meter of 10.
2. Paragons can then be ascended for 1 mil+ power to become vernal ascendants. There can only one of these per org. All vernal ascendants get are the 'standard' demigod powers for free (won't have to buy them from the essence shop), base/spec ascendance, and domoth bonuses. VA's get a spark meter of 15. Both Paragons and VA's then gain access to further RP/nexus-related purchasable abilities if it's allowed.
3. To make the transition smooth, all current VA's become Paragons, then from there, one of them can be elected to VA again. TA's are the same as VA's under this system.
SPARKS:
1. All demigods, paragons, and VA/TA's get a spark meter. For this example's sake, demigods and paragons get a total spark meter of 10, while VA/TA's get 15.
2. All purchasable (with essence) powers have a spark requirement, ranging from 0-10. Generally, RP/cool/custom abilities need 0 spark, while pk related/borderline broken abilities require 3-5.
3. You can reset your invested powers in exchange for essence, demi wackodoru.
4. This system gives the demigod the chance to tailor themselves to the situation/RP they wish, while at the same time avoiding the argument that eventually a demi with enough time will just be as broken as they were under the old system, i.e. the 'time delayed status quo'.
I really like this idea because it accomplishes many things at once: those who were rewarded with VA for serving their org still get a shiny status and have the chance to participate in the essence shop idea without being totally broken with ascendance skills/domoth bonuses yet still have the RP utility of cults. This also solves the idea of VA remaining special since there can only be 6 VA's total under this system. This also happens to nerf insta-demis because it makes them have to spend essence to get all their lame broken skills. In essence, I want to remove the idea that demigod = pker. The accompanying stats/abilities that can be purchased can be adjusted accordingly.
With the addition of Rodngar's ideas, this also helps further avoid a majority of the imbalances associated with demi because it literally makes it impossible for a demi to have their cake and eat it too. For example, +str and sizechange ability can cost 5 spark each, and if a demi wanted to be that 'broken', they will have to give up everything else about a demigod.
Rodngar2010-03-23 18:41:42
This is a glorious, glorious improvement upon my idea from last night - I approve.
Sylphas2010-03-23 18:45:39
Rodngar2010-03-23 18:49:33
RP stuff costing 0 sounds good. Would you also be rolling in to the system my idea for VA-specific powers, or nexus-specific powers (like Seren Demis can get X, Hallifax Demix can get Y - both bought with essence, 'equipped' with sparks)?
Unknown2010-03-23 18:51:45
Absolutely, the beauty of the shop and spark system means that you can shove all your ideas into it (with associated costs).
Estarra2010-03-23 18:52:47
I'm really not liking the paragon idea of a second ascension class, it sound like a back door workaround to keep things as they are. Let's assume there will be ascendants, ex-ascendants, and demigods.
Unknown2010-03-23 18:53:23
well nuts
Rodngar2010-03-23 18:53:31
This also means that Demigod is an ever-growing concept in terms of diversity and perks, actually - with the Spark system, all you need to do is make the cost prohibitive enough to make it difficult to break. I'm liking the way you tweaked this more and more.
Unknown2010-03-23 18:55:43
Though I don't think my description of paragons is keeping things the same. Paragons are literally just the same as demis with the RP ability of cults. They get nothing else.
You wanted a way to make VA special again, which I did, while at the same time making our current VA's keep something of the time/RP invested into their characters. People generally agree that cults are mostly RP, so letting Paragons have it shouldn't be a big deal.
Though, if you really insist, I'd be fine with VA/TA only having ascendance, if that's what's killing the idea, because honestly, I think it's worth considering.
You wanted a way to make VA special again, which I did, while at the same time making our current VA's keep something of the time/RP invested into their characters. People generally agree that cults are mostly RP, so letting Paragons have it shouldn't be a big deal.
Though, if you really insist, I'd be fine with VA/TA only having ascendance, if that's what's killing the idea, because honestly, I think it's worth considering.
Rodngar2010-03-23 18:57:26
QUOTE (Estarra @ Mar 23 2010, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm really not liking the paragon idea of a second ascension class, it sound like a back door workaround to keep things as they are. Let's assume there will be ascendants, ex-ascendants, and demigods.
What do you think about the Sparks Meter idea, though? Would that be a way to 'overhaul' endgame and maybe curtail how powerful the system is? It also makes VAs unique in that they might have higher Spark Meter.
I know it doesn't discuss limiting the influx of Vernals, of course - but I'd leave that for other people to discuss. I think limiting the number of VAs to a single digit number below 5 is a great idea, with the cost to raise each getting higher and higher, no upkeep required.
Xenthos2010-03-23 18:58:15
QUOTE (Sojiro @ Mar 23 2010, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Though I don't think my description of paragons is keeping things the same. Paragons are literally just the same as demis with the RP ability of cults. They get nothing else.
Yeah, I think that's actually the best way to go with this Estarra, if you want to find some compromise between the two.
Paragons leaves the cool title, it leaves the people with the ability to use the Cult powers, and they can't lose Paragon. But instead of losing Paragon they'd give some kind of cost if they died with 0 essence. They still have the RP of being representatives of the organization, raised through power, but it's not the super-unique thing that being the one VA (with the rest of the Ascendant skills) has-- they're more just Demigods with cult powers and a fancy title.
Eventru2010-03-23 19:04:34
My only concern with the 'spark' system is it seems 'too' limited to me, so to speak. I'm particularly fond of the idea of abilities having to be re-bought periodically - allowing people to 'work' to have more, so to speak. Though, I'm naturally fond of soft caps.
Edit: And it seems to me that 'paragons' and 'ex-vernals' are the same thing, the only difference being how they're achieved. IE paragons is an active thing, ("Here, take paragon!") and ex-vernals are retired Vernal Ascendants. I think (personally!) the latter seems better, if only because it keeps their presence rare enough that it's something special.
Edit: And it seems to me that 'paragons' and 'ex-vernals' are the same thing, the only difference being how they're achieved. IE paragons is an active thing, ("Here, take paragon!") and ex-vernals are retired Vernal Ascendants. I think (personally!) the latter seems better, if only because it keeps their presence rare enough that it's something special.
Rodngar2010-03-23 19:06:25
I'd argue the opposite, really: I think the Spark system is a perfect way to give Demigods powerful/above-average things, but limit just how many things they can actively get. By buying everything, they don't get to use it all. It's kind of like picking a loadout for a soldier - it takes your custom tailor idea and changes things around a bit. It's almost like Demigod is a tailored 'artifact', in this system.
Ssaliss2010-03-23 19:09:09
The danger is that half of the demis will have near-identical setups (the one most effective for combat, aside from a few small differences) which would remove much of the uniqueness.
Unknown2010-03-23 19:09:24
I really, really, really don't want to keep buying my special abilities and/or paying upkeep on them.
Rodngar2010-03-23 19:10:14
That was a concern of mine, but really, you will always run in to cookie-cutter builds. You already do in Lusternia - most people pick X tertiary, or Y race for Z class.
Eventru2010-03-23 19:11:12
Right, though I'm sort of left wondering as to what good essence is once they're 'achieved', so to speak. Once you've bought everything, then? Essence is just sitting there again. This seems to me like we have the opportunity to address a great swathe of problems (the 'I've bought everything, now what?' essence problem, the 'Demigods want more RP stuff' and the perceived 'Demigods are too imbalancing' stuff. I think just attaching a one-time cost isn't particularly productive - we might as well just jump the experience-to-level across the board, it seems like.)
To Zarquan: I can understand that. We could do something like, low cost and, as you buy things, the price scales, so to speak. Assign everything a 'weight', and the higher your weight, the larger a percent hike on cost goes up, or something. Just kind of a random idea. There could also be 'permanent' things and 'temporary' things - so the ability to become an avatar might be bought once and be with you forever, but +2str +2con would require being rebought once a month. Just an idea! I personally would rather see people have the option to push for more, versus be limited. But I guess I just prefer soft caps versus hard caps.
To Zarquan: I can understand that. We could do something like, low cost and, as you buy things, the price scales, so to speak. Assign everything a 'weight', and the higher your weight, the larger a percent hike on cost goes up, or something. Just kind of a random idea. There could also be 'permanent' things and 'temporary' things - so the ability to become an avatar might be bought once and be with you forever, but +2str +2con would require being rebought once a month. Just an idea! I personally would rather see people have the option to push for more, versus be limited. But I guess I just prefer soft caps versus hard caps.
Rodngar2010-03-23 19:13:16
Make essence a secondary mana for new Demigod spark options.
Alef2010-03-23 19:14:18
Why not allow a demigod to buy all available abilities, but only have a select number active at one time? Keeping with the spark idea that was presented, a demigod can select the abilities that they feel will help them in a situation. For example:
+con - 1 spark
+cha - 1 spark
+int - 1 spark
divinefire - 3 spark
zap - 3 spark
etc..
Then, let's say you've bought all of the combat enhancements, you can select which you want active, in the same manner as investing an angel/demon with powers.
That way, there is only a one time cost to purchase abilities, abilities can be added over time and be brought in line with what we have already.
+con - 1 spark
+cha - 1 spark
+int - 1 spark
divinefire - 3 spark
zap - 3 spark
etc..
Then, let's say you've bought all of the combat enhancements, you can select which you want active, in the same manner as investing an angel/demon with powers.
That way, there is only a one time cost to purchase abilities, abilities can be added over time and be brought in line with what we have already.
