Yeah, I know, it sucks for me too when I feel as though there is something that has to be done that won't be popular. I wouldn't do it unless I truly believed it would be best for the overall game. I'm not a masochist, I honestly hate it when people think I'm an asshole just out to punish them and make their lives miserable. Please believe me that I don't make these decisions lightly and certainly don't enjoy it. But, yeah, sometimes I must stick to my guns if it's something I believe in.

My initial thought is that they should keep get some of that essence. If we decide to track levels pre-ascendant, then we could convert it to experience (if they weren't a demigod to begin with).

Saying it's unpopular is an understatement. It's disincentive to any who aspired to become VA, and it's disheartening and stressful for any who are currently VA. It has potential to alienate an important sector of the playerbase.

I think we all still want to know the full motivation for this, and that would help us come up with suggestions and refinements.

I'll still feel pretty shafted only getting a portion of the 120 mil essence put into ascendance. And still doesn't answer the question about those of us with cults. What happens to those? 10 million essence down the drain, not counting upkeep costs of however long we've had them for.

As I said before, this is something I've been wanting to do this for a long time. I believe vernals should be extremely rare--remember they were originally planned as full RP gods! Originally, I was only imagining one vernal per city/commune. However, the more vernals that are raised, the more it's becoming clear that it's snowballing: i.e., the more vernals there are, the easier it is to raise more. I also understand that some people look at it as being awarded demigod for the cost of power. I am sympathetic that some people want vernal to be RP rewards more so than combat rewards (though for me the rp of vernals reinforces the need for vernals to be rarer). In any event, I think it is extremely important to rollback to the original intent and make sure there are limits to the number of vernals a city or commune can have active, both for combat balance as well as (and perhaps especially) for the RP of what vernals are and how difficult they should be to raise and maintain.

Isn't the first evident motivation behind this to limit the number of ascendants? As the game keeps going, cities get more and more power, which translates directly into more and more ascendants, since that's the best, coolest, and theoretically most useful thing to use power on, on a scale large enough to prevent a constant increase in the pool. It's also meant to limit the number of inactive vernals. Killing two birds with one stone.

No comment on the potential of the idea I posted?

And while your intention of making them more roleplay oriented is awesome, you'd have to change them from the basis (not make them give demi, for a start!) And this is just going to be a situation of whoever has it now is the only person who ever will. Xenthos and Nejii are people who do deserve what they have, but why should they be the only ones who get it? It's not really fair to strip them of vernal because they are great examples of what their orgs stand for, but is it also fair to say to everyone else who works really hard 'Sorry, you are awesome, but well, Nejii was here way longer than you, and well... he already has it! Maybe if he goes inactive, you can be rewarded!'

Sure, vernals should be much more rare than than the concept of being able to do it forever and have a whole org of them, but the idea of some roleplayed number of vernals would really add to the game, rather than take away from it. And make people think more carefully about it too, in the case of some orgs.

All of which can be done by making it harder to raise a vernal with each new one, rather than costing an org more power than it can generate without completely powerblocking everyone in the Org.
I would add in the death idea for vernals as well, that was discussed before, where it costs the nexus X amount of power if the Vernal dies without a certain amount of essence in their pool.

I had a post written up, but it was a rant and not constructive at all.

My idea? Delete the entire Ascendant system and just stick with demigods.

I had a post.

It can be summed up with:

Poor sad little birdy-angel-thingy.

You could appease the existing VA's with an artifact of their choosing. If that's not enticing enough maybe offer the opportunity to design something unique and within reason. Younger VA's who have relatively less to lose will to relinquish their Vernal Ascendency voluntarily until 3 or 4 remain. Introduce the original idea/soft-cap/upkeep. Reimburse essence and focus on the essence shop. Do this before Seren raises their next VA. And they all lived happily ever after.

But this is not true. If it were, Seren would still be raising at the same rate that they were in the past -- and they're clearly not. Number of VAs might relate to how well an org is doing, in that they reflect the power gain achieved by an org doing well -- but are NOT the cause of it doing well. If you're doing this at all as a hope to balance the game... I'm afraid that's just misguided. I said before and will profess again, it's the groups of core people each org has that make it strong. If Krellan, Nyir, Urazial, and I had not been raised in Glom, we would still all be demis, and still all be playing on the Glom side in all the events. Fearaura and Aegis are not what is responsible for our power gain.

Obviously no one is going to change your mind on this... as with other things, it is clear that your opinion is set in stone. This makes it difficult to engage in conversation with you on the matter, resulting in the frustrated posts that have been tidily whisked away. I understand there's an IRE policy where you're prohibited from playing a game you admin on. While I can see the good points here, I think you really, really lose touch with what it's like to be a player at all as a result, and that this loss of empathy results in the poor handling of some administrative decisions. Most people on here do understand that you're doing what you feel is correct for the overall health of the game, but the way that things are done sometimes, and this is a perfect example, just leave people shaking their heads and feeling that you don't care about the players at all.

You can acknowledge that people will be disappointed, but if you say it in the same breath as, "but I'm going to do it anyway so deal with it," while simultaneously having no plan to soften the forthcoming blow, it comes off as being at best out of touch and at worst just... indifferent.

We could consider this. I keep saying I'm open to ideas to soften the blow on vernals who may step down. Any other ideas?

All of the essence they lost upon gaining ascendance and all of the essence they invested into ascendance.

Though again, people would prefer Sidd's idea + powerdebt.

Not making people step down.

So why was there nothing released that "ensured" there would be no "massive" amount of VAs raised? If you honestly wanted just one VA per city/commune then why didn't you take a firmer stance on it. You guys have been known to be quite firm and unmoving when it comes to things you honestly feel would work. If you had -honestly- wanted it to be so limited in number then why was nothing done to ensure this? If you're willing to look ahead and see the possibilities of what -might- happen now, then why wasn't this thought of when it was originally placed in?

I can understand you're not psychics or able to prepare for everything, but I, like many others who've said before, can see what will more than likely end up happening. Yes, maybe the VA wasn't meant for a PvP role, but will, more than likely, take such a role. I just don't think that the people like Xenthos, Nejii, Thoros, Sarrasri, and the many others who have put so much time and effort into this to suddenly be told they need to step down simply because it is best for the commune/city to raise someone else with more combat prowess.

Well, yes, two obviously trollish posts were whisked away but I don't think it's fair to insinuate that there's been heavy moderation against those who want to blow off steam. Anyway, if by "engaging in conversation", you mean to make me change my mind, then you're right that probably isn't going to happen (but you never know). However, if by "engaging in conversation", you mean that we can discuss what's the best way to make this work, then I think that's what we've been doing.



I'm all for softening the blow! Tell me how!

You're right. I screwed up on this. I should have done as you said and been more vigilant at the beginning. But we are where we are and can't go back in time.

I see many people here that prefer the other method as well as it seriously tones down the number of Ascendants which as Estarra said in posts previous should be special. It is not special when entire cliques of players just pass it around to their friends. This is easily a step in the right direction and that is coming from someone who is in line to be an Ascendant just the same, who has never hopped, and is in all rights worthy of an Ascendant crown for their RP just the same. This is and remains needed and I am happy to see that Estarra is not bending to the forum zerg.

Here is how to soften the blow, Estarra:
Give them back their essence and then open an essence shop filled with RP goodies. Give them a special honors. Make ascendant stripping have two methods. Dishonorable and honorable. Two different honors for each. Now that is an achievement to try and hold both lol.

Maybe make a city/commune honors like guilds have. There you go, its all about RP now. Its a wonderful title to tout. Ascendant is still special. No game breaking groups. Win for all.

Part of (not the entirety) softening the blow would be giving back all essence invested in Ascendance, plus the ten million for a cult or whatever, and not losing anything from the current essence pool when being turned into a demigod. Not merely a portion.