Got to page 5 or so, skipped the rest.

This "solution" is arguably a problem possibly greater than the original problem it's intended to fix. To the extent that these problems aren't just non-problems to begin with, there are far better solutions available.

Let's look at our assumptions here.

Ascendants should be capped (I don't want to say soft cap because this is about as soft as having a 1 tonne weight made of styrofoam dropped on you, it still weighs a tonne) in order for them to be more special. This is hard to argue with because it was part of the original concept. The flaw is in A) assuming that this limit should be like, 2, or maybe 3 for Glom (why?), and assuming that they will indeed be more special when firstly, you limited it to active combatants, and scondly you actively remove much of the mystique by making it such a tenuous thing in the first place.

Ascendants should be capped in order to prevent snowballing effects from domoths or combat in general. There are several flaws with this. One, most of VA's power is actually in demigod. Some demigods complained about ascendants getting the "easy road", but firstly that was never true, and secondly I don't think anyone can reasonably claim that anymore given the vast amount of vortex-munching, wall-phasing and astral-swarming that produced probably the majority of our current demigods (note: claim not verified by statistics). Also double XP bonuses now so yeah. So now that's out of the way with, the more problem-like problems. Snowballing combat effects? Demigod has most of those. VAs should probably have less of an impact on combat to begin with, if fearaura is the real complaint. Or aegis, which I think the general consensus on is pretty good but not overpowered. Snowballing domoth effects? Demigod has most of this too.

TAs should be treated as more special than VAs. I don't even know what the justification behind this is other than the rather circular one that the mechanics always made it that way. Not being able to leave your org was always an acceptable extra cost for VA on top of TA because the whole idea was that they raised you for being a top-tier org member and continuing to help that org even more.

The list of problems this solution creates has already been covered by Gregori, Xenthos and others. It punishes existing VAs which is if very demoralising. The group of people this screws over isn't that large so you might be tempted to dismiss it, but it also makes the orgs they were in feel screwed over to some extent. As mentioned it also doesn't make the "specialness" problem much better and if VAs are for some reason overpowering in domoths or whatever, well, they still are! There's just less of them to do it with.

I doubt I have much chance of making an impact on Estarra's solution here but what I will say is that if you want to fix the problems without creating even worse ones you should think about exactly what role VA is supposed to fill, and whether existing players can be allowed to fill this role without encroaching into other ones. Specifically, strip out the problematic elements of VA and allow existing players to retain the non-problematic elements left over (all the RP trappings and many of the totally inoffensive cult powers and related junk.) Evaluate exactly what is and isn't lost here and adjust as needed. THEN we can talk about soft-capping numbers.

Naturally I understand I am biased on this subject (especially since it looks like I'll be screwed over if it goes through as is despite 5 years of helping out) but I'm pretty sure most or all of the complaints I raised deserve consideration anyway.

It hurts to look, but I do it anyway. Sigh.

I agree with Shiri's post. I'd also like to say that if these power rules are instated, it would make the VA's constantly worry about "paying their upkeep" or else their home might strip them,

Cityleader: If you can't come up with 4k power a month from now on, I'm afraid your ascendancy will go buhbye.

Well, this makes more sense than order affinity.

It's too bad we don't all have player made villages to upkeep these costs (aka Ragniliff)

If this was true, he wouldn't be arguing for something that would have most likely placed him next on the list.

Anyway, I'm a little late in the game reading this so I have a few too many responses.

First, of course, I approve. I understand this seems like a sudden change to people but honestly how is that any different to how everything else is worked out? Everything gets changed suddenly as the Admins feel necessary. Aetherhunting was recently changed and it angered a lot of people (who didn't get their 60 RL days and you're a Demigod fix) but there were good reasons for it. And I say that loving aetherhunting myself. Speaking of I'm sorry to say I don't agree with the not letting non-Demigods not be VAs right away until they earn it by reaching Demi because we've all witnessed that's easily done with achievements, double-xp days and hours of aetherhunting. So really that won't put a limit on anyone. And I do think there should be limits on getting to be way too awesome. Like the recent essence drain to Gods for their followers and aetherhunting being way too easy and rewarding, etc.

And I'm not sure I fully understand what this VA RP is about. Why is VA a reward for RP if as 'non-combatants' you wouldn't even use 2/3rds of the skills. As mentioned there are many other things to devote yourselves to. Although I will consent to say that non-combatants who emote well and give in other ways should get something flashy, too. But this isn't it. And if you really just want VA, pay the power cost to keep yourself on.

Finally, I don't recall the Admins being a part of any org so I don't see how this is bitterness and bias over Glom having more. Though I can't say the same about a lot of other people.

Let's keep the accusations of who is bitter about what to a minimum, hm? And let's not bring order affinity into it, either. I don't want to be the mean mod man.

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong skillset. For handy reference, lemme paste what's on the Lore wiki:


List for me the 2/3 of the skill that would go unused as a non-combatant.

There are 6 skills that could possibly be contrived to be used for combat in the ascendant skillset, of those skills, Fearaura and Aegis play the biggest part, Destruction, Affinity, are helpful for combat, but not really sole combat abilites, and then you have intervention and supper in cults which are the same kind of thing.

That being said, 2 of the 17 skills are solely combat . The rest of it, is RP/utility so I'm a bit confused where you think 2/3rds of the skills aren't aimed at RP, considering half the skillset is for cults.
Truth be told, you could argue that the entire skillset is RP.

The bigger issue, is that many people view VA as a huge reward for dedication, effort and contribution to an org (I can't say when I was raised I had demonstrated these to the extent others have, but if you want to get into reasons why myself in particular was raised, we can definitely discuss it somewhere else). This being the case, it can definitely be a huge RP achievement to be raised, to demonstrate that you contributed enough to your org to earn this distinctive honor (See, Xenthos, Malicia, Nejii, Thoros etc) Others were also raised solely for combat reasons (myself, Narsrim, but I will argue that both myself and Narsrim contributed and brought a lot to each of our orgs even if we hadn't spent a lot of time there.) That is what they are speaking about when they say RP. People who work hard want to be recognized for their effort. People laugh at Glom for raising Urazial, but name one other person that has stalwartly defended and been a part of Glomdoring through the good and the bad for as long as he has. He brings a lot to Glom and puts forth a lot of effort and he was recognized for it. That's RP people are talking about.

To further state it again, all this solution does is punish existing orgs that did well. I don't think that the admin have a bias against Glomdoring, I think the same kind of thought would go in, if it were Mag with 7 VA's and Glom with few, and I'm willing to bet Mag would be putting up a bigger fight if that were the case (can we prove it? no). Yes, I'm bias, I've spent the majority of my Lusty career playing as VA but I really think this is the wrong way to go. I'm also willing to bet that this won't change any effect on how the orgs stand combat wise. Fearaura and Aegis only help us win, they aren't the reason for us winning (waits for OP choke/brumetower/bonds comment).

I'm not worried about you losing VA when, as you say, most of your time has been as VA. What makes me hate this is if Nejii gets stripped after working for Seren for five years to earn it. Or for Lendren, who I'm not sure even wants it but also deserves it and will never get close to having it under the new system. Skillset or not, demi or not, having your org sink 1 million power into you is a huge vote for you as a player who was given to that org and is worthy of that honor, even if can be used to just buff a fighter.

Xenthos.

But yes, I agree with everything you just said about people viewing VA as recognition for long dedication to an org.

That came off way too harsh to Sidd, I'm sorry.

no worries, I understand what you mean

Hrm. Actually you're right. You can use most of those skills as a non-combatant looking over again (though they sure do help) but can you really say most VAs are raised for RP reasons (excepting the originals before combat was the way it is.) Because it is a combat tactic to raise someone. Even the noncombatant VAs suddenly feel safer going out into the fighting knowing they're less likely to die. I just feel the same about Demigods, it's not special anymore. And yes, Magnagora might be complaining as Glomdoring is now if they had the higher number, but it doesn't mean they'd be right about it either. It sucks to have something that was overpoweringly great taken away, but that's the way it is sometimes. If I read a good argument over why this isn't a fair solution to the 'problem' then I'd concede to it. So long as it's not about just being angry that things are being limited so as not to continue to reach an uneven scale. Which I will admit I haven't read every page yet. I stopped at page 5 same as Nejii whose arguments, by the way, are valid so I'm still thinking it out.

So 10 out of however many. Looks to be around 2/3

Obvious tangent is obvious.

Xenthos, Nyir, Urazial, Talan were all raised for more RP than combat reasons (4 of 7 Glom VA's)

Esano, been pretty die hard Mag since I've played the game (that makes 2 of 3 for Mag including Thoros)

Malicia and Talkan were both more RP than combat I would guess, even if Talkan was mostly a combative dude (2 of 3 for them)

Nejii, Sarrarsi were both RP raisings, I'm unsure the exact protocol behind the others, but I bet they had history, even if they were raised for combative purposes (needing a melder or somesuch)

so yes, I would say RP has some pretty big importance to it

Gregori was RP raised. Alianna was the "fighter" raising. They were both raised at same time cause twice in a row the election tied, even when Rika tried putting in a third option to swing votes.

I did forget about the affinity melding issue, so my bad but the rest you're stretching it

I could argue why half of those you said aren't really combat, but that's a tangent that doesn't really matter, I'll maintain my point that most of it is definitely RP usable

You reach the point where you have to ask "Does any ability which can be used for a combat purpose count as a combat-oriented ability?" If so, the majority of Ascendance does count. If not, the numbers are a bit less.

Of course, this isn't counting things like domoth bonuses, which are almost purely aimed at combatants - sure, you could have your army of demigods grab it for your ascendant in second stage, I suppose, but it's a lot easier if the ascendant is a combatant themselves.

EDIT: I agree there should be something aimed at roleplayers. Sadly, Ascendancy really isn't it, despite what it was originally touted as. The abilities may have RP backgrounds and importance, but they also have a massive influence on combat situations, and in Lusternia combat trumps everything else.