Then we're opening a whole other can of worms in terms of balance and you already changed wounding and damage before as well, didn't you? My point is that there are some people who state that Demigod stats play a role in Warrior viability. I would say look at the results of a person without Demigod stats, then the same person with. Same weapon, same stuff, etc. I think the stats are just a mechanical advantage that should go. My other point is that I am under the impression that you balance the game's damage and wounding formula AROUND Demigod stats - this doesn't make Demigod overpowered. It makes them the standard of balance, however, which means that technically, non-Demigods are underpowered. That is honestly what I am trying to convey here. It is why I want the stats given to people gradually, not in one lump at level 100.



No, the idea is more along the lines of "level up to 10, get a +stat choice, level up to 20, get a +stat choice, level up to 30, get a +stat choice" - the numbers being completely arbitrary.

Why should people that worked their asses off in PvE be rewarded in PvP? If anything I'd like to see buffs to PvE in general and give Demi utility and PvE perks only, +con maybe, increased damage vs mobs (but not via +stat), mob only divinefire. Aetolia has raids now, if I'm reading right; it's not like we don't have options for things to do.

It's not fair to say they have 'worked their arses off'. To be honest, all they've done is idle on a module, bot Influence, bot bashing, or rode some other EXP train. It isn't a show of skill or superior ability, unless you count patience as an ability I guess. Why should they be rewarded with something like +statistics for it? It's also not fair to allow those people to be the standard of formulaic balance while those of us who do not invest oodles of free time idling are at a mathematically lower level of potential. This, once again, does not take in to account player skill. There are people who do good outside of Demigod, but mathematically, a Demigod will do more damage or more wounding.

I think I understand both sides of the argument regarding stats and I'll be on the fence for now. However, I don't want to have this thread derailed so that's the only thing that's discussed.

We're still looking for concrete suggestions for ascendants and demigods!

If you had hard numbers from valid testing and not just anecdotal from one or two people, it would substantiate your claims and help your case.

You're wrong, though.

It's not Demigod stats that do it, it's Demigod stats plus the extra strength that you can get from expanding in size (+3 weighted points from size increase, along with the +2 to base).

+3 from size, +3 from flex, +1 from bear gets you pretty close to the strength weight-buff cap, but you're barking up the wrong tree when you claim it's based on the +2 stats themselves. It's not.



3+3+1 == 7 weighted (+4 total strength points)
Max weight for buffs == 8 weighted (+5 total strength points)

Thus, for a Demigod who has expanded, they only need to get 1 of the following to reach the cap: Herofete, Truefavour, Highmagic Geburah.
A non-Demigod warrior has to stack on 4 of those to reach the same, which (being tough to do) leaves them more than 2 strength behind-- 3, or even 4 points behind. Usually at the lower end of the curve, where these points make a bigger difference.

Finally, I'm pretty sure that Akui's post even stated right in it that a good part of that was the bonus given by expanding.

(However, if that's nerfed, it completely screws up wounding yet again)

So explain to me how that doesn't make Demigod the standard of statistical balance STILL, when all you're doing is adding an extra step that increases the STR gap between a non-Demi and Demi even further, Xenthos?

I agree with Larkin. You need hard numbers. Otherwise your argument is moot, Rodngar.

Because your entire rant is based on the +2 stats, when it's not. Those +2 stats are not gamebreaking in and of themselves.

It is only when combined with another Demigod perk (changing size), and then that perk also influencing stats (Dex & Strength), that they can be stacked together. This cannot be done for int-based classes, which is what Estarra's point earlier was. You then continued going on stating that it was an issue with all Demigods that the stat exists, but... well, your "evidence" (warriors and wounding) is fundamentally flawed. The +2 stats are not what's making the difference here; at least, not alone.

You need to look at the big picture.

Wow thanks for looking out for me Rodngar. Just make sure you don't get too excited and pop a blood vessel or something.

Rodngar, if we balanced the game around level 1 and removed all mathematical difference from level 2 and up, would you be satisfied?

It's quite convenient that you've ignored my initial response to you.

Rodngar - You're the only person I've heard really complain in a long while that demigod is too hard to get. There are 94 demis/ascendants, and another 15 titans on the doorstep. Between achievements and recurring double xp events, let alone the ludicrous/delightful combination of the two - if you earnestly believe that demigod is still some distant, unattainable thing, well, you're just plain not trying.

Your posts here come off like indignant rants that one aspect of the game, albeit a large one, ie. pvp combat, requires you to *gasp* spend time improving your character. Which is to say - playing the game. The grind of leveling up is not exactly a concept unique to Lusternia - in fact given influence and aethercraft, I'd say Lusternia is doing an above-average job of creating varied activities to engage in to progress your character. Lusternia has levels. That is the type of game that it is. But it also already accommodates you if you wish to experience progressive stat boosts as you level -- play a human character.

I can't help but feel like you've just missed the point of this thread/issue completely. There are literally so many people at the top that we now have to find more outlets for their achievement. Estarra has stated that she does not wish it to be VA, so we are trying to find a fairly fluffy solution that gives end-gamers something to dither away their essence on that does not continue to give them huge buffs for combat, while fixing anything glaringly OP in the same field along the way.

So common sense is moot? I was unaware that was the new standard. You're going to tell me that you don't realize the problem in making the standard of statistics used to balance damage and wounding the one that is buffed by a long grind, instead of the one that most of the playerbase actually is? I'll go out and get you numbers right after I find some people willing to help me do it - but honestly, I'm puzzled at how you think my argument is 'moot' when I'm providing a completely sound reasoning for why I think Demigods being the standard of statistical power is outright a horrible idea.

PS: For game balance, if you really wanted to re-work warrior formulas again, the way to go would be to remove the dex & strength thing from size changing and then rebalance the wounding formulas again. Then those +2 stats by themselves won't be all that effective.

That said, I really like not being stuck at horrid strength.

I just wanted to point out (even though it may result in a nerfing of what I like) that this combination is where the issue lies.

You're arguing that non-Demi Warriors need buffing, but your case for it is to nerf endgame. That doesn't make sense. You're also not providing any PROOF of this statisical imbalance. Xenthos has already done a good job in diffusing your long-winded arguments in one short post. You need numbers to back up your 'Demigods being the standard of statistical power is outright a horrible idea' argument. +1 Stats is hardly, HARDLY imbalancing.

EDIT: And by the way, I agree that non-Demi Warriors could probably use buffing so that artifact runes and such are not required. However, nerfing endgame warriors to be the same as non-Demi warriors just makes the entire archetype suffer.

What you're doing is stating how things currently are, and I honestly understand what you mean. Balancing the game around anything but the highest level is a problem - but why must the highest level confer advantages that players below level 100 do not get, meaning that level 100 is required to be on the balanced standard of power?

You just said that every non-Demi warrior has completely screwed up wounding. That's ok somehow, because Demi is a possibility for everyone?

Demigod technically is a possibility for everyone. There's nothing mechanically wise prohibiting you from achieving it. Only you.

So then would you say that altering size is a bigger problem of what I am complaining about?

It's more that if it's changed, if the formula isn't reworked wounding is screwed up for everyone, not just non-Demigods.

Honestly, nobody else posted this issue anywhere in this thread. I'm bringing it up because it explains the disparity Rodngar is going on about, and it is definitely a disparity. I'm just saying that it can't be half-addressed by only changing the size part of the equation.

To Rodngar: Neither one alone is an issue, IMO. It's the stacking of them that makes the disparity large enough to actually be an issue-- especially since the 3-4 point range is usually in the lower ends of the strength scale where each strength point does matter more.