Of course it does.

Like I said before, whether they 'deserve' it or not, demigods will likely have a mechanical edge. I know you think they shouldn't but I don't see my opinion changing on that. Thus, the question simply is whether some demigod perk is too much of a mechanical edge or not.

I understand that, but why do stats, something so concrete and absolutely ESSENTIAL to governing how well abilities work, have to be one of the mechanical advantages? That is why I propose you spread the stats out across levels instead of getting rid of them, as the genie is already out of the bottle, ship has sailed, cat has eaten the mouse, the whiskernoogan is in the whiskernoogan drawer, whatever. The game is balanced on CURRENT Demigod stats. Just deleting Demigod stats would throw everything in to whack. By spreading out the gains over levels, you give people something to bash for to a point (still), while giving those who do not want to reach level 100 the mechanical racial statistics the game is balanced upon.

I have nothing against any mechanical advantage they gain besides maybe divinefire - and obviously, stats.

When Akui is saying that now wounding is viable again with level 100, I grow a little worried. When the success of top tier use of a single archetype often is made MUCH easier by having Demigod stats, I grow even moreso worried. There are people who say they'd go Warrior, but they 'aren't Demi' or 'can't get Demi'. Don't you think that is a little worrying? People are hesitant to change class because of the stats bestowed in the combination of simple base buffs + size adjustment.

Why can't we just get the extra stats as we level gradually - even if it was 20/60/80/100, with 100 getting three boosts to cover the last 3 stats? So long as I can choose where my boosts go and can go through a long, drawn out process to readjust them if I ever change class (or can pay credits similar to reincarnation dagger to do so).

I'm still not convinced the stat gains are as imbalancing as you suggest. I'm fairly neutral to negative about spreading out the stat gains, mostly because it mimics human evolution which I feel should be solely the human perk. What's the RP reason? Who gets what stat when? Can they choose? If so, can they "reroll"? If they can't choose and its based on their archetype (exactly like human evolution), wouldn't the last 3 stats make all the difference? We're also talking about more significant coding.

According to Xenthos, from what I've read in his posts addressing me: the biggest imbalancing factor is a combination of how Size works (in terms of +STR/-DEX or vice versa), and the +Stats of Demigod. The two put together allow for high extremes of STR - and by gaining +2 Size, +2 DEX, you effectively can pump your size up 6 and retain the normal DEX of your race while having a net of +3 or +4 STR higher than the norms of your race (counting Demigod). This gives you a much larger range of damage and wounding.

Also, I'm not saying the stats are imbalancing - I'm saying that the LACK of stats is imbalancing. Demigods are the standard of power - which means mortals are underpowered.

Also, I would say that you would make it the exact OPPOSITE of Human Evolution in terms of what stats come first - if based on archetype, anyways. The good ones come first, solving the problem of what mortals lack compared to Demigods. If it isn't based on archetype, the above is going to happen: they will go +STR or +INT or +DEX first as those are the three most important stats for pretty much every class. Well, no.. +CHA for Bard, right?

... it's not so much high extremes of strength as it is "much easier to get to the cap". A non-Demigod could get the weight other ways too (and thus be just 2 behind, which isn't much), it's just considerably harder so they usually don't. Leaving them in the lurch.

You're still fixated on the Demigod +stat thing though, which... isn't even the problem by itself. Nor would your solution even be affecting the size thing at all. Nor is this a problem for any other class. You're absolutely obsessed with this topic, and you're trying to use warriors as the reason / primary example... when it is fundamentally flawed and not even a valid argument.

If you want to do this successfully, try arguing about the +2 stats making any other class than Warrior overpowered and see how far that gets ya. Because the argument holds no water when you 1) Know it isn't valid for warriors because it's a combination of things affecting it, and 2) Continue to cling to that because it's the only example you've got.

I've actually been trying to find out how much CHA and INT matter for classes that like those stats to do just that, actually.

Hint: It doesn't, because there are diminishing returns the higher you get. If you get all the buffs that are freely available to everyone (Demigod or not), the only difference is that final last 2 points; which, being at the upper end of the scale, gives a minor-but-not-excessive-bonus.

Now, that +20% magic damage rune on the other hand...

(Which means that for your test to be valid, you need a non-Demigod and a Demigod who have gotten every single buff they can; a truefavour, a herofete, knowledge blessing, beauty blessing, throne, etc. etc.). You have to get to the high ranges of the stat and then compare. Same race, same buffs, all that good stuff.

Well, yeah, I knew there were DRs. Estarra very kindly pointed that out to me last night I think it was. My impression was that at the basic levels of statistics, if you handed a Mage 2 INT, he'd see a less than modest damage increase - but it wouldn't be unnoticeable. If it isn't noticeable, then how does it become such a pain in ass at the STR cap for Warriors? I mean, obviously, different math per class.. but if the DRs really do what they're supposed to, then why is it that warriors generally are decried as less than effective until they have an easier time hitting that cap?

All this stat discussion is strange. Sure the stats are a nice bonus, but divinefire has always been a much larger issue if you want to talk about balance and overpowered abilities.

It depends on where they are on the scale. If you bump a mage from 12 to 14 int, you're going to see a very hefty increase. If you buff a mage from 21 to 23, the increase is far far less. Of course, if you're amplifying it with an artifact that gives +20% damage, that increase is 20% greater than it would otherwise be... but yeah, that's an issue of an artifact, not the stats themselves.

Plus, I thought I already answered that last question. It's because the gap is usually far greater than 2 strength points. With a gap of 4 strength points you're going to have noticeable effects, especially if the other person's strength is, say, 18 and yours is 14. That's right in the prime of the curve. It's harder for non-Demigods to get to +8 strength-weight-points than it is for Demigods, and they're already 2 behind initially. Like I said, it's the combination of two entirely different mechanics that combine together to make a larger gap than you see in any other class, really.

If Akui, pre-Demigod, had been walking around with 3+ Truefavours at all times... well, there'd be a slight difference in noticed wounding effect, heh. Still a bit less than Demigod, but more than otherwise; especially as those points are on a lower end of the curve than the next two points would be.

So what you're saying is that realistically, for most races and most archetypes, you don't think the +2 matters as much as I seem to be putting emphasis on it? I think I got that about 7 hours ago.

I remain firm in saying it makes a difference. I won't say it is gamebreaking since honestly I do read what people say and I've sat here thinking on it - but I still think it is a mite unfair to hand stats (something very important to ability formulas) to people just because they hit level 100.

I don't think it does and I believe that the numbers / facts I've put together support my claim. There was an observed disparity in the Warrior part of it, which I feel I have fully addressed. There is, in fact, a disparity in that Demigods who change size get three free weighted strength points along with the two racial non-weighted points. Further, warriors are balanced around being able to max out their strength, which non-Demigod warriors have more difficulty doing; an issue not relevant to other classes since Demigod doesn't allow for weighted bonuses to the other stats (except Dex, which isn't as big a deal really).

Of course, I'm not going to claim it doesn't make a difference as it does. It's just not a game-breaking difference and it is a nice perk.

So. I bothered to get a few hits done at different STR amounts, specifically the +2 under question. These are the results on the same target, same limb, with the same set of weapons - only the STR changes.

at 16 STR:

407 damage and 355 wounds

And at 18 STR:

375 damage and 327 wounds

Keeping in mind that this is within the range where STR differences are going to see the most difference (as opposed to in the 20+ range). This amount may or may not also be slightly boosted by the 10% plus wounding runes on said weapons.

My problem with that entire thing is the example you put forth earlier: for instance, assume I'm a level 80 Human Mage. That means I've got 15 INT (I do!) - if you hand me the +2 INT from a Demigod, I've got 17. I've not yet hit the 20s, where I assume it matters a hell of a lot less.

Wouldn't I see a modest increase in damage? Sure, an artifact would raise it more, but that is still a good extra 2 INT's worth of damage I get on a staff or demesne effects.

I'm still concerned by knights (Akui, in this case) saying they can't wound, then they get demi and they can. That points to a problem with knights where if you don't hit a certain breakpoint you can't compete.

The difference between the damage from a loboshigaru and imperial merian staff cast might be smaller than you think.

Part of me is INCREDIBLY skeptical of that. I wish I could find a Loboshigaru Mage who can staffcast me, and then an Imperial Merian - but Merian are extinct. :3

When the last major INT change went through, the difference in damage on player characters was 90 health points when using aqua staff casts.

I'm not going to claim that it's still like that, as the game has changed a lot since, but I remember it well since it caused a lot of discontent with the merian players. The damage difference used to be quite substantial, which made the low con and weaknesses to electricity and fire worth putting up with.

It is relevant because this was the first big nail in the coffin of merians as a popular race.

But by all means, if you don't believe me in the slightest, go out and find people, get them exactly the same karma blessings/buffs/etc. besides INT, and find out how much it matters.