Strip the stats from demigod and you really will not see any difference when it comes to the top end players doing well. Demigod helps, but it is definitely not needed to do well. Just like artifacts help, but they are definitely not needed to do well either. With all of the buffs possible with Karma, Orders, Domoths, and Favours +2 stats is really a minor blip on the radar.

A person who does not fight well before being a demigod will still not fight well after being one, all other things remaining the same. So they can remove the +2 stats from demigods, but the best fighters will still be the best and those at the bottom will remain at the bottom.

Anyhow, I am all for stripping the stat bonus from Demigod and Titans. Once it is shown that +2 stats is not the problem, then perhaps we can move on to fixing the real problems with combat.

The Geb has spoken

But if you look carefully you'll see that you can deal more damage and wounds with less strength. It's the reason why faelings and mugwump are so awesome.

Replying to this because it's related to the 'Demigod is necessary for Warrior Archetypes to be successful' topic we're on:

Last I checked, Nienla has been a Blacktalon and a Shadowdancer. Did you go Ebonguard lately? I haven't played in ages.If you didn't, then your lack of Demigod is of no hinderance. Blacktalon and Shadowdancer are affliction classes. The main thing I'm getting at here for the topic: The extra CON would help you stay alive, the DEX would do the same for stancing, and STR for shieldstun. That's about the extent of it in Nienla's case.

There's a noticable dichotomy between what being a Demigod benefits and what being a Demigod does not benefit:

1. If you kill an enemy by locking their curing/healing down or pulling off an instakill (Wiccan, Druid, Guardian, Mage) then Demigod's bonuses do not really affect your offense.
2. If you kill an enemy by bulldozing through their health, or by relying on a status that is not tied to health/mana/ego (ie, Wound Levels) (Warriors, Monks, Bards, Psionics to some extent and Ceren) then Demigod's bonuses really benefit your offense.

Your INT, as a Druid, doesn't matter. I remember Kalodan walking around as an Igasho and killing people with Gore. I was considering doing the same for awhile. Survivability as a Druid is key, because your INT as useless, since you don't damagekill. You stay alive as long as you can to pull off your win condition. The same can be said for Wiccans- Succumb/Lash are not tied to intelligence. Take down their mana, toadcurse, stomp. Guardians down you with instakills or Soulless or Inquisition (length stun, functionally the same as the whole 'stopping their healing' concept).

Warriors, Bards, Monks get both, though. Increased survivability, increased offense. But in the case of Warriors it's become a reliability on that more than anything.

Main Points Since I am Likely Rambling: Wiccans/Druids/Guardians/Mages kill by affliction locking or stopping the enemy from curing entirely. They gain no offensive benefit from Demigod. Warriors, Bards, and Monks rely on plowing through your Health/Mana vitals to kill you with brute force. Warriors and Monks are aided in this by the Wounds system, allowing them to unlock deadlier and more crippling afflictions.

Wiccans/Druids/Guardians/Mages gain survivability benefits from Demigod.
Warriors/Bards/Monks gain survivability benefits from Demigod and offensive benefits.

The list of 'what you need to be a good Warrior' has, for awhile now, come to include 'Demigod'. Is that wrong? Several people (myself included) think so- Combat already is a costly investment, though recent admin additions (FirstAid) have helped alleviate that.

In the name of science Ragniliff and I did an experiment.
I risked life and limb and here are some numbers.
Damage Wounds
17 strength
553 267

18 strength
570 275

At this point she changed to human and she became stronger than a taurian!
642 310

This is a single swing from a one-handed rapier with lightning rune against a mugwump wearing plate. Myth busted!

Specifically - 23 STR

If anyone's interested in what the difference would be for monks:

The dex bonus to wounding is calculated on the difference between attacker's and target's dex. Dropping the +2 titan/demi mod won't make much difference in high end combat as the difference between two demis will be the same as before the change. Losing the shrink +dex bonus will likely make a difference, and this would be compounded by knights not using expand and their already enormous resistance to wounding thanks to plate armour.

I haven't tested str too thoroughly. Going from 15 to 16 strength against an opponent with 12 strengh increases damage by about 5%. This is roughly the same as the difference in damage caused by 100 wounds. Strength's effect on damage is usually dwarfed by prone, modifiers and wounding bonus so I don't think it'll matter too much.

1. If stat gains suffer from diminishing returns (weighted stat gains), their effects shouldn't have diminishing returns, as well.

2. Demigod should be helpful to all class to a similar degree - not just knights. Knights should not be the end-game class.

As an example, int isn't that useful for any of the other classes, since damage kills simply aren't done, unless someone has been afflicted and locked down anyway. Having a large mana pool only helps when it can be converted into health via surge, or as insurance against mana kills. Skills like soulless should be tweaked so that the amount of time that they take before they happen is dependent on int. Another example, quicken could last longer, with higher int.

3. Balance should be at the demigod level. I would argue they should be balanced demis with every possible helpful artifact.

Of course this isn't 'everybody', but it sets a ceiling. If it isn't broken at that level, it will be okay for everyone else. No one should be that overpowered, no matter how much time they've put into the game. I'm also talking about things like killing people with amissio/absolve, or building wounds on people - both of which become a lot harder if your target is a demigod.

Remove the str/dex changes from size changes, and you remove the bonuses that benefit warriors and monks without benefiting other archetypes much at all.

As has been mentioned, the stat bonuses simply mean that demigods expend a tad less energy boosting to the max.

I know plenty of warriors that do just fine without the benefit of demigod bonuses. It's all about the skills and knowing how to use them. Preparation is key, too, of course.

Who included Demigod in that list, because a good warrior can kill demigods without being one. It is not necessary at all to be a demigod and be good warrior, but many of you telling people that fallacy has placed it in their head that it is needed. What is actually needed to be a good warrior are these things:

1. A great defensive system (which includes being good at stancing and parrying).

2. Level 75+

3. Understand how to use your wound afflictions to hinder and to help you get ahead on your offense. Also understand how to combine those wound afflictions with poisons that will help aid in that process.

5. Transcendant in many of your skills (for those abilities that aid in survival).

6. Understand when to run, when to stand your ground, and when to use direct hindering or other defensive abilities (web, headslam, or shield) to give you the time you need to catch up on your healing.

8. Good forged weapons, though those are really only needed for the best of the best. Against the average, even practice weapons will do.

9. Understand how to read your opponents parrying and stancing. Then take that information and use it to tailor your attacks to get around and/or mislead their defenses. A very important one, because I've stood in front of a few Demigods with only 40/40 robes on doing nothing but healing, parrying, and stancing and they could not build up enough wounds to do harm to me. I've also read some logs of Ascendant warriors who were so poor at reading parrying, stancing and rebounding that they would hit a person's parry, stance or rebound aura more than they would actually hit the person.

Demigod will not magically make a poor warrior into a good one. What it does do is add a bit more resilience to damage, but even then the boost from other sources will be greater than the boost from +2 in INT and CON while surged. The increase in damage from +2 (even with the ability to change size) will be at best 75-150 or so more damage per hit compared to other high strength races, and that boost can be eclipsed by other sources like domoths+karma+trufavours.

Being a demigod does boost your bashing, and so it does help you gain those other boosts which may be partially where the true problem is. With the greater speed in bashing, demigods gain trufavours+karma blessings faster. A War blessing will give you more damage than +2 to your strength. A Life Blessing will add more health than +2 to your constitution. A Knowledge blessing can help boost the surge health levels of a warrior. A trufavour gives great boosts in stats, boosts in some abilities (depending on which skillsets are boosted), and added damage absorption to boot. Also order powers are easier to acquire as a demigod because of the greater speed in gathering karma and essence. Demigods, because of their bashing speed, are more likely to have all of those boosts and maintain them over a person who is not a demigod. So fighting a demigod sans those added boosts is not really a big deal (besides once per hour divinefire), but fighting one that maintains a significant number of the other boosts I mentioned can be a bit overpowering against the average player.