Kind of following on to Ruiku's log, which turned into a pretty loltastic thread pretty fast.


Here's another log of choke and pfifth. The log's a bit messy, because I likes me my echoes. The fight is 2v2 except for when Jerik pops in and dies almost right away. Some quick statistics:

• According to my timestamps, the fight lasted just over 5 minutes.
• During the 5 minute fight, choke is used against me 6 times.
• During the 5 minute fight, perfect fifth is used against me 5 times. (I'm not counting the number of times these may have been used on Chalcedony)
• Also, we see dirge against me twice, and my teammate got mazed twice (that I saw).
• I spent 43% of the 5 minutes under the effects of choke.

According to the last thread, the ways to escape this combination of skills (that is, choke+pfifth+dirge) is to either

1. outr earwort, eat earwort, tumble
2. gust bard, or gust choker (or have your teammate gust them)

I used both these to escape at least once during the course of the fight. After a while, the temple was so clogged with icewalls that neither of the above two options would have worked. Yes, melting them is of course the way around this, but if I'm already spending 3 choke actions doing earwort and tumble, a fourth (that puts me off eq for 4 seconds) is going to mean an easy dirge kill.

Supposedly, this is all very balanced and it comes down to coordination. Obviously, if I am choked for nearly half the time, that means Sidd is too. The trouble is, I don't know of a combination of Shofangi and Stag SG skills that is going to land a kill on a fullplated knight (or an acrobatic bard, for that matter) faster than the timed Dirge, but I am open to suggestions.

Wow, one trick pony much?

You are pre-pulling earwort whenever shadows are released, so why you are then outrifting a single earwort again? it is wasting time for you, when you could just straight eat it. Also, you are eating earwort when you still have earache so it's knocking you off eq for however long that is, wasting more time to pull off a gust or a tumble.

Another thing is you inrift everytime after you get out of choke, but only outrift it on shadows being released, so if you walked back into a room with shadows already, you could be choked with them all in your rift (unless you outr for shadows already in the room, but I didn't see that).

Right before the first deathsong, Chalcedony pulled herself into the trees when she could have gusted you or Celina out of them room to save you

To be fair, you were getting out of choke rather easily (gust and either tumble/walk), and there was really no focus on targets from the two of you except for that time right before Chalcedony got mazed the first time. Just mainly a lack of coordination, which Serenwilde is definitely getting better at overall. I was never really being beat on by both of you in choke, the only time I was, I wasn't choked so could heal. Chalcedony was just trying to build momentum on me while you were choked by grappling, which doesn't really hinder at all. Shofangi have that disruption bullstomp, bullkick to kick someone out of the room or they could hyper and lay down the 4mo-nopower greenlock that shofangi pull off. You could have gone for more leg wounding and tried for pinleg with morphite after gusting and with Chalcedony beating on me to, it could have been reversed and turned on me.

I also noticed 15 or so instances of you trying to eat something, and the "you don't have that" failure message being repeated back at you. While you were choked. One of them was a group of about 8 in a row, which can't have been helping your chances of accomplishing anything useful during that time.

As to the rest of it, I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment. But those wasted actions in choke strike me as something to be improved upon.

Didn't really post for advice on curing. But:

• The only time I outr'd a single earwort while choked was when I didn't have any out (What is it you want to eat?). The other times I outr'd singly were outside of choke, so it doesn't matter.
  
• I had forgotten to insert a check for earache when I put up my truehearing defense on shadows released. This has already been fixed.
  
• Inrifting after choke is a preventative so I don't drop 100 of every herb when I die, which is annoying. I try to outrift again when I see shadows in a room or on shadows being released. It wasn't quite working here, but again, this is something that I already noticed and fixed.
  
• Chalcedony was choked at that point too (she was asking to be gusted herself shortly before that). She got herself out, and kudos to her.

Overall, what you seem to be saying is that there are minute problems in the way I outrift/inrift, and that either led to me getting killed or not being able to fight back effectively. The point of the post goes something like this:

Under choke and perfect-fifth, there is nothing I or my group can do that will kill you or Celina as quickly as a timed instant kill. Therefore, I am left with no option but to escape from the choke-pfifth combination. However, the log shows that choke+pfifth can and will be used repeatedly until my escapes fail. This isn't a new problem, or even a particularly interesting one, but I hope that I can make the point that something in the combination of these skills needs to change.

Well, of course timed insta-kills are the way to go, but you only died once to a timed insta-kill, the second time was damage. If your team member had stayed, and instead of climbing into the trees, gusted Celina, you would have been saved, which would have opened up further oppurtunities, there was one point where I had you choked and double tendoned and Chalcedony(who wasn't choked) instead of trying to stop me(who was choke), was attacking Celina (who wasn't even dirging). As I said, the thing that got you killed was coordination, I was just putting out a few helpful things to improve choke curing, not saying those are the reason you got killed. Celina and I were working together, Chalcedony and you were kind of floundering. There was no target calling, no communication between you two except for a tell from chalcedony saying gust me, you can't see our channels, but we announce things over our combat clan so we know what's going on. You post a log trying to show how a skill combo is OP and unstoppable, yet you had opportunities to focus and do some damage and you didn't. Is Choke/pfifth rough, yes, no one will deny that, that's why we use it, but it isn't any rougher than multitudes of other group combos out there (TP bombs, pinleg/wane, the unstoppable hex MD sleep combo). Choke is a pretty easy skill to backfire with, ask Ceren or Narsrim or anyone really.

RE: Curing

Sorry if my reply sounded sarcastic there. I do appreciate having flaws in my curing pointed out, I'm just trying to keep the discussion from flying off-track into "your choke curing is imperfect and here's why". I know it's not perfect, and I read all my logs and fix things as I can.

RE: Gusting

Like I said, Chalc was looking for a way out of choke herself when I died to Dirge. I wouldn't expect her to gust me out, and if that is really the best option for escaping this combination (having an already-choked target gust out a choke-pfifth-dirged teammate), then that kind of speaks for itself, don't you think?

RE: Communication

Of course, your side will have the advantage that you can alias CLT CHOKING EAMON on before you drop choke, whereas I would have to waste an action inside of choke to call it out. Same for Celina, since she never has to deal with choke's effects, she can call out all the orders/info she needs to. Remember, I'm choked for nearly half the log here, and given that the window to get out of choke+pfifth is at most a few seconds, I'm not going to be spending that time calling things to clans when I could be trying to cure.

RE: Double-tendon

I think you may need to re-read. When you hit the second tendon, Chalc was immediately mazed. How could she have hit you then?

RE: Other group combos

These look a lot like more red herrings to me. I don't see any skills there that a pair like Stag SG and Shofangi could put together, so why are you bringing them up? I would guess that my best shot at messing you, the choker, up would be hitting something like pinleg, or maybe something on the head/chest? This is kind of the point - what fast kill is there against a fullplated knight that can compete with Dirge?


In summary, a lot of red herrings trying to divert attention from a skill combination that you admit is pretty rough. I never called it unstoppable, in fact, the log shows me escaping from choke 4 times, 3 of those from the combination with pfifth. What it is showing is that the same lame combination can and will be used over and over until some small mistake will result in imminent death.

I wonder if we'd finally see Wiccan buffs if we got rid of Choke entirely.

I already gave suggestions of certain things that could have been done in my first post

group combat is group combat, Chalcedony was in no direct threat when she escaped from choke and thus could have saved you, part of being a team is working together, and saving your friends when they need it. as I said, small mistakes didn't kill you, lack of teamwork and working together did.

I was pointing out those other combos, because they are just that, powerful combos that people have access to but they get done to me all the time and I don't post logs crying OP. Things you could have done as SG/Shofangi stagstomp/bullstomp for off-eq, gone for the pinleg instead of hitting the arms consistently. hyper for the easy greenlock, headslams to stun/possibly prone. While they aren't insta-kills no, they are still things you could have done. Hell, eating earwort would have stopped the first dirge, I doubt you had earache the whole time and you already had earwort outrifted.


I won't argue the semantics you are pointing out, because they are just that, semantics, to take away from the main point I was trying to get across in that there are things you could have done and didn't do. Don't call out red herring and then try to avoid the point. IE Chalcedony couldn't have hit me because she was mazed when you hit the second tendon, but she wasn't hitting me before she was mazed either, and while she wasn't hitting me, I got your wounds on the leg built up for the double tendon while she was hitting Celina and not me.

Also pfifth and choke take 3p per, so while it may seem like they can just be spam used they can't. Celina mazed Chalcedony twice(10p skill) which means it takes 21 secs or so to regen enough power to hit with pfifth again.

In summary, not working together in a teamwork situation and taking advantage of oppurtunites leads to death in powerful combinations of skills, and this happens in any combination of skills with great synergy.

RE: Spammability

Pfifth and Choke are both 3 power. By the time I cure earache in choke and tumble, you have both regained that power. Done. Move a room, repeat.

RE: SG/Shfangi combinations

• Stagstomp requires a prone target. Also, being off-eq isn't exactly life-threatening.
• I hit your legs plenty and didn't land pinleg, power moves and all. Sometimes, I hit away from the bodypart I want to hit to get your parry to move. I guess I just don't have all the necessary artifacts to fight against fullplated people yet.
• Greenlock wouldn't happen until 4-5 momentum, which takes 15-19 seconds to build if completely unhindered (notice how Celina had glamours effects slowing Chalc down at the time). We'll say 10-12 under hyper, unhindered. That's still plenty of time for a Dirge to go through.
• Headslam, really? Something that stuns you for a couple seconds with nothing passive hitting you and sticks me off balance for longer? Not life-threatening.
• I missed outrifting on the first dirge, but we've covered that already.

None of these put you in an even close to dangerous situation, with the exception of the theory-crafted fast, unhindered greenlock. All things that could have been done, yes, but with the same outcome.

RE: Red herrings

If that's what you thought I was calling a red herring, then someone needs a trip to Wikipedia. It's a deliberate attempt to divert from the point by changing the subject. For instance, by bringing up lots of OTHER irrelevant skill combinations to the discussion at hand. Did anything I say indicate that TP-ganking was a balanced thing? Come to think of it, I didn't mention TP ganks at all. You did. To take the subject away from this one-trick pony you're trying to defend as being balanced.

... actually, you're not even. I re-read your posts and you haven't once claimed that this situation is fair. Only that there are "things we could have done" to improve. In the absence of any feasible suggestions after 3 of your posts, I'll just assume that you can't think of any and save you the trouble of another reply.

I'm not really sure it's fair calling people one trick ponies when it deals with groups. You kind of have to do your most effective tactic to drop people as quickly as possible before reinforcements show up or the enemy's kill method is achieved. In this case, the monk getting to 3 mo.

Where was the ancestralcurse, room effects screw with choke. Sipping love helps with the bard effects. Though, Chalc getting mazed didn't help. Everyone knows abilities that take people out of the fight are pretty awesome during group combat (displacement, maze, bubble, fleshstone, etc.).

Could have just stagstomped while Sidd was choked, or had Chalc bullsnort, disrupt is annoying, doubly so if it comes with prone. Hell, stagstomp someone while they're choked then knock them down and they'd be in trouble.

Good job gusting, you certainly did much better than the flailing first log.

P.S. Target Celina first, attacking the fullplate warrior with night as both a monk and knight takes too long and you will die.

whoa whoa whoa, it takes you 21 seconds to outr/eat/tumble? Come on now. takes 1 sec to outrift, 1 sec to eat and 1sec + 5-6 secs for tumble, so we're looking at a grand total of 9 seconds? you could do that twice in the time it takes to regen power from one choke.

I'll be the first to admit that choke/pfifth is rough, but the entirety of your log and post is to show that "it needs changed" and bringing up those other skills combinations is to point out that if this is indeed too rough, then so are all these other things. If you want to change one, then change them all.

Stagstomp/bullstomp is extremely annoying and hindering, especially in choke situations, there is a reason whispers was/is whored and was nerfed and is -still- whored a lot

as a Nekotai, I could hyper/refresh power(nekotai can't greenlock without a boost, something shofangi can do)/ and greenlock someone in 15 secs and that's after waiting for eq from refresh. That's plenty of time to cause some damage and I wasn't saying she should do that to stop dirge, she should do it to lay the hurt on the choked person(me). To stop dirge you have to gust/bullkick, fear or eat earwort and I already pointed out there were opportunities for that

You asked for suggestions and are now deeming everything I said as unfeasible. This reminds me about an argument I had with Nienla yesterday about how when something fails time and time again, you should try something else, even if it sounds unfeasible, because your current tactics are obviously not working. If you don't want suggestions then don't bother asking.

Er. Stagstomp is very good in Choke. I think you're underestimating how lethal being knocked off eq is. Not to mention, I agree with Sidd. Ceren and Narsrim have both done fine in Choke when people have teamed them.

Edit: Though, from what I've heard about old Choke. I'm all about bringing that back if you want.

Edit2: Point is, Choke is going to stay. Just like Wane/Pinleg's going to stay. Trample/Crucify's going to stay. Barrierchasm, and any other good team combination. An idea would be to have people make a trigger for the Choke message to echo on whatever Seren's military clan is that PERSON HAS CHOKED PERSON. EVERYONE TARGET PERSON #1. Plus, it's not hard for your group to paralyse the bard, or even gust you out. Serenwilde just isn't coordinated at all.

Edit3: And the Shofangi greenlock is at 4 mo. Which is dumb since no other Monk can do that.

Interesting how you've all missed the part about the target needing to be prone for Stagstomp to work.

It's not hard to get someone in Choke prone.

Especially with shofangi, who have a prone mod of all things.

Though yes, getting choked to trigger CLT @target is CHOKING ME, kill @target helps during groups.

And, wasting time calling it out is time that could've been spent curing or escaping.

It's the replacing of commands that makes abilities like this a real PITA, though.

I'd love to see an honest, all out fight between two Gloms where one or both is using Choke and the other is dealing with it superbly. If it can be shown that it's more a matter of skill than luck, I'll feel a little better about the ability being balanced (not that you care, I suppose).

Or hey, you could even follow suit by perfectfifth'ing the Choker and having a Spiritsinger bardoon.

I'm done with this thread for today... going to go watch soccer. This is too stressful for a sick day.

Just to put in a few last kind words:

@Shuyin, I had love potion up, and though I take your point about Ancestralcurse, that means I have to be rejecting too. Next time, Celina's getting first target (Sidd's too tough, I felt a bit like my rapiers were going to break against his armour).

@Sidd, sorry misread your previous. Thought you meant 21s to recover power from maze, not pfifth. I thought that seemed quick. I'm also not against changing those other combinations you mentioned, but haven't been on the receiving end of them over and over and over. If you're worried about them, make your own post, and don't clutter up mine. I'm trying to take in suggestions, just that looking at them it just didn't seem like any of those is going to be slowing you down, excepting the greenlock which Chalc now knows about (but she's gone from Seren anyhow )

@Nienla, no to old Choke. I remember it, and just, no. Also, I'm not Ceren or Narsrim, but am trying to get better.

@all, just FYI Stagstomp requires the target to be prone already, otherwise it fails. It's not exactly something that can just be thrown around on a whim. Could get a beast spit mantakaya or a prone from a teammate, but timing that inside of choke is dicey.

Again, apologies if my comments became snide, especially to Sidd. I think I'm just frustrated. Time to catch the end of the Netherlands game.

EDIT: woah, got triple-ninjaed. But I didn't see a Spiritsinger in that log...

For what it's worth, I think you have the best attitude of any Serenwilder. And I think you're probably the most likely to be Serenwilde's saviour right now.