Glom was quiet before any of Glom's private clans came about. Glom really just doesn't have the "let's have inane chatter on all of our channels" sort of culture. The Harbinger GT used to be pretty active when I was GM, I don't know if there has been some policy change not to talk on it, but if you want some chatter, start some up on GT. There is nothing wrong with 1-on-1 interaction, and I think that makes the game more interesting than doing all the interacting on a channel.

I personally like the lack of chatter over CT/GT. 'Course I'm not an avid AARRRPPEEEEEE!'r. When I see something over CT/GT, I stop what I'm doing and really pay attention to it because I assume it's going to be important (Like "ZOMG ALL OF ZE FIRELORDS ARE DYING!"). When it turns out been inane BS, I get pissed, even if the inane BS is IC and what not. On the other hand, if I see something pop up on Wishes, I know 100% that if I'm busy at the moment, I can safely ignore it, and the world will keep on turning.

Hmm, elite clan does have its merits. As long as it doesn't mean novices get locked out of learning because everything is kept inside the clan and thus they don't see the "professionals" at work. Not saying that is the situation here, but it is a risk to keep in the back of your mind. Because it might even happen unintentionally and unnoticed.

I wasn't kicked out of Jhagar, I quit it of my own volition like three or four weeks before someone else made this thread. If you know anything about my time there, you know I brought up these same concerns while I was still a member, including making a clan news post about trying to get more people in on raids.

I quit Jhagar because I was tired of being a part of a system I don't agree with, and did not talk about Jhagar again until this thread had run for something like seven pages. I brought it up because as most people agree, the OP's concerns and Jhagar running PvP in Mag are parts of the same issue, since Jhagar's success has been the Legion (and Magnagora as a whole's) decline as a unified organization.

All these unfounded personal attacks on me for taking the clan's existence public are as pointless as they are predictable. Magnagora needs to become more inclusive and it surely will over time, and accusing me of bias because I quit the old boy's club will not make the problems go away.

I'm going to address the main point people have raised here without a lot of multi-quoting or other fiddly business.

Chatter on CT/GT can be bothersome/I like it when those channels are quiet/1-on-1 interaction is fine:

Do you belong to an active private/OOC clan? If so, you can afford to prefer that public channels remain quiet, because you can shoot the breeze in your clan. If not, perhaps you prefer to be left alone, or just greatly favor 1-on-1 interaction — and that's totally fine, but it's your personal preference. It doesn't apply to everyone.

Perhaps there are new players who would like a place to engage in chatter immediately, break the ice, and so on and so forth. New players won't really know what private clans are at first, and once they do, they may not realize that that's where all of the breeze-shooting occurs. It took me a while to realize this fact myself, and I'm no dummy (my opinion, of course). Fortunately, personal, 1-on-1 interaction and newbie tenders do have some of this covered, or else hardly anyone at all would stick with the game.

The problem with relying solely on personal interaction is that a lot of experienced players in this game are very businesslike (I know this applies especially to Glomdoring, but I also know we're not the only ones). They're always off hunting, influencing, exploring, questing, fighting, blowing through rooms on the way to their next destination, and traipsing off into Lusternia's system of planes. I'm like that too; I'm fairly new, but I am always off doing something nonetheless. The nexuses are the only "taverns" in the entire game, really, and not all of them are used as social hubs.

Speaking of planes: Planar isolation reduces the size of CWHO/GWHO lists (and the main WHO list as well), and also even further reduces what newbies without a fair amount of lessons in Planar can hear on GT and CT. This "artificially deflates" the appearance of activity within the game.

Overall, what I'm saying is that communication in Lusternia is in general very, very scattered, and the hubs of relaxing chatter are chiefly reserved for private groups of friends, aside from those nexuses that are used for IC banter. Of course everyone in this thread is fine with that, because... well... those who aren't fine with that don't play Lusternia anymore. And that is my point.

I'm not trying to browbeat anyone here. It's no one's fault, it's just how all the cards have fallen in this unique gaming environment with a community of this size. It's also not my intent to "complain" here because I'm lonely in-game, which is what I believe some of you suspect. Shoot, I can't log in without being greeted by two or three people most of the time, through PMs, clans or what-have-you. There was even a period a couple of months ago where I wished people would leave me alone for a while so I could bonk things over the head more efficiently.

All of this is only my own opinion, perhaps even a bit of an overreaction, and overly colored by only ever having been in Glomdoring. It's also hard to explain properly. So I don't claim that I'm the be-all and end-all of Lusternian social commentators.

Except where every incarnation of the Legion has ended up failing, years before Jhagar existed. While it may contribute to the problem, there are many more factors at work that you omit, or more likely are naive of having not managed the Legion before. However, yes you have a point.

What counts as success and failure for the Legion? When I was first playing Lusternia in Daevos' Magnagora, it seemed to work well enough. Just by being active, by changing the ranks and power allotments and having targets and raid defense actions called in a single place where everyone present can always hear it, that would be success in my book.

Just a note, Planar affects how far your voice projects, not how far away you can hear. Which is pretty much the same issue, I guess. I can talk to people almost anywhere because I'm trans, but people can't respond except via message. It also means people hear a lot of half conversations.

I agree that it does come down to personal preference, but that's also kind of what makes the discussion difficult at any level beyond, "I prefer...." It's not an inherent flaw that Glomdoring's CT is quiet; it's that some people don't like that, while others do.

Xin did not belong to OOC clans, and it was only very late in his career that he belonged to some private ones. I didn't like a "quiet CT" so much as liked "a CT where the things people said had a purpose and furthered the RP or logistics of being in Glomdoring." I realize some people may play Lusternia to socialize with friends. I did not. I played it to RP a character in a story. I use instant messaging to shoot the breeze with friends, and I never really got into the whole Lusternia-As-Chat-Client thing.

But like you say, that's my personal preference, and I loved Glomdoring's CT for that reason. I don't think there's anything wrong with it at all. I was a novice, and I liked that. Some probably won't, but I don't think that in and of itself is a good enough reason to try to make CT more chatty.

This is my opinion about Mag as someone who isn't a novice (well, sometimes I don't remember the basic stuff, like that you can return from a plane the same way you got there, but that's because I've been inactive for quite some time).

I've been in Mag for about a week. Nobody answers my questions over CT. Great, I like it, because you are a serf, you need to earn the trust and appreciation of your peers.

Ruiku not slitthroating me when I peered at him. Great, I liked it. Ruiku offering to forge me my chain. Even better!

Most of the time I'm the only person in my guild (mostly due to the fact that I live in Europe and I have weird play times compared to most players), not really an issue. But when the few people in my guild do show up, they are awesome and patient with me.

If I really need something, I go to the Megalith (there's always someone there) and I try to convince him to help me. If he doesn't want to help me, well, see my first statement, I'm a serf after all.

Can't really talk about the Legion/whatever combat clan, because I don't want to get into combat yet, but I like Magnagora so far, and this is coming from someone who has been in hippie town all his life.

Just so people know that Mag isn't such a cruel and despicable place. Just like with every other organisation out there, some people will like it, some people will not. But if some people don't like Mag doesn't necessarily mean it's something wrong with it, just that they have different tastes.

Lies, word on the street is that we never help and the city is pure evil that drives everyone away.

But, those two things are a problem. I mean, it's great that you, as a non-newbie, know enough to get by without having your questions and requests for help answered, but for someone new to the game, that would probably be enough to convince them that Lusternia is full of jerks who don't want to help anyone and they leave.

Which is the opposite of what we want people to think and do.

Answering a novices question has nothing to do with trust and appreciation being earned by the novice. You don't have to trust or appreciate someone to answer their questions.

All my questions on CGT were swiftly answered, and I like I've said, I usually play where there are very few people around. Isn't CGT where novices should be asking questions anyway? And if a novice asks a novice question on CT, he will be answered, I've seen it happen every time.

I think CT should be for roleplay. CT on Mag works just like that.

Well, you didn't mention CGT or that you'd seen other people's questions answered on CT. Just that your questions went unanswered on CT and people refused to help you at the Megalith. Hence my confusion by what you meant.

But still. I'm not saying that Magnagora needs to change their roleplay, but maybe a few people in Magnagora (not everyone!!!!) might need to temper their roleplay with the OOC knowledge that the game needs more players and scaring folks off by being over the top or ignoring them completely is not the way to go about that.

It's possible to play at being superior to someone without being a jerk about it.

No one disagrees that Legion needs to be looked at. The problem I, and probably the others have, with your original post was the characterization of Jhagar as some malevolent, shadowy clique of e-jerks who wish "the rest of the city didn't exist." It just isn't true.

We aren't preventing anyone from getting involved with combat. I got involved long before joining Jhagar, I don't see the issue with other people putting in the same effort that I did. Jhagar has no obligation to teach or accept anyone - that should be a job for Legion and GCs, which are IC entities.

Legion is the army, Jhagar is the general staff. We used Legion last night, actually, and only Jhagar members showed up! Shocking...

Being a novice new to Lust, but not to IRE, I can say a few things on this topic.

When I was in the college I got a lot of help. Random people would come up and ask if I needed anything and helped a lot if I couldn't find something. Now that I graduated I'm finding the interaction a bit lacking. Nihilists are quiet, CT is quiet, and whatever else is...quiet.

If I were new to MUDs in general and had zero clue what I was doing I would most likely leave. I believe the only thing that allows me to stay and get along is my knowledge of the systems from another IRE mud.

I'm still trying to figure out how the fact that you don't like inane BS meshes with the fact that you are in Wishes .

That was pretty much my experience when I started out in Glomdoring, although I was entirely new to IRE MUDs, and I also made friends with a handful of talkative people before I graduated novicehood. The novice helpers will keep an eye on you for a while, and everyone is incredibly helpful — but after that, it's mostly crickets and tumbleweeds.

That's what I'm saying: Veteran players may not recognize it (or may simply not care, since they like the way things are set up), but this game seems very quiet to newcomers, and substantial in-person interactions (which absolutely do occur) aren't always available. Newcomers are far more likely to stay awhile and warm up to the game if they're given the benefit of friendly, informal banter. Maybe it's inane, but if it helps someone feel welcome, who cares?

The actual friendly banter mostly occurs in clans, and I don't exactly see people falling all over themselves to invite relative newcomers (those who show promise, I mean) into these clans. That's hard to monitor, of course, so kudos to those of you who do.

The planar system, the overabundance of orgs and guilds (for a player base of this size), and the fact that people who aren't enthusiastic role-players probably do most of their chatting OOC (which is fine in and of itself) serve to exacerbate the problem.

What's the solution, then? I don't know. All I can think of is a universal OOC channel, and believe me, I don't want that in principle... although realistically, since nearly everyone has access to some form of OOC chatting clan anyway (myself included), what would it actually hurt, with rules in place to prevent skullduggery?

This bothers me because I believe it affects the retention of new players, and I really do care about that. I believe we should strive to include people in whatever way we can, and forming exclusive social clubs is detrimental to that goal. We're just too small to have a bunch of inaccessible social pockets (I hesitate to use "cliques" for obvious reasons).

OOC clans already get... fractious enough, even with some limitations on who can join.

I doubt there is any administrator who wants to police a true OOC channel upon which everyone has access, to be honest.

Believe you me, I agree with you. I wouldn't actually want to see one implemented.

But as far as solutions go for people who quit because they feel the game is too quiet, I can't think of anything else. It's too late in the game (heh, double-meaning) to change anything fundamental about how player communication works.