Unknown2010-08-05 16:17:19
You know what, you should just give the city over to someone else. Let them run it if they think they can do a better job. If it works well clearly something wasn't working with you in charge. If it falls apart and they come running to you to fix it, shrug and say "but you're the leader now." Win win if you ask me.
Unknown2010-08-05 16:20:41
QUOTE (Sarvasti @ Aug 5 2010, 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know what, you should just give the city over to someone else. Let them run it if they think they can do a better job. If it works well clearly something wasn't working with you in charge. If it falls apart and they come running to you to fix it, shrug and say "but you're the leader now." Win win if you ask me.
That sounds a lot like This episode of South Park (Dances with smurfs).
Jayden2010-08-05 16:21:45
QUOTE (Rainydays @ Aug 5 2010, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
An ineffectual leader that has won four elections handily, one would be remiss for not adding.
When the perception is carried out largely by a few people willing to throw alt after alt into the sacrificial fires to fabricate it, I feel it lacks validity.
When the perception is carried out largely by a few people willing to throw alt after alt into the sacrificial fires to fabricate it, I feel it lacks validity.
I didnt say a bad leader. I said ineffectual because he cant do what he wants to truly accomplish for the betterment of the Gooch. Would not matter if it is valid or not. How one is percieved becomes reality for that person. That perception will continue to spread wether it is true or not.
All I am saying if this is what you truly want to accomplish without ten kinds of drama then the best option would be to have someone as city leader who would basically say the same thing as Kalin but wouldnt come with the same perceptions, thus eliminating some of the drama and issues.
He can still seek to go forward with his plans, but there will continue to be the drama that he talked about for awhile.
Unknown2010-08-05 16:26:51
QUOTE (Jayden @ Aug 5 2010, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I didnt say a bad leader. I said ineffectual because he cant do what he wants to truly accomplish for the betterment of the Gooch. Would not matter if it is valid or not. How one is percieved becomes reality for that person. That perception will continue to spread wether it is true or not.
I didn't say bad leader either... its right there in your quoted post...
As for perception, if he was that poorly perceived, whether he was a good leader or a bad one, he wouldn't have won those elections. After all, perception matters for such things a great deal. He wins because the vote weight against him comes from people with 1's and 2's. I.e.- the mighty alt uprising.
Good thing we put in vote weight to stop just that sort of abuse.
Aoife2010-08-05 16:35:02
It might be noted that part of the problem/perceived problem is related to his prior alt.
It might also be worth noting (again) something that has been said multiple times in this thread: Gaudiguch's leaders are not hamstrung by the idea of losing their cushy positions, but by the perception that the administration will step in due to complaints from the discontent (never mind that they are the same five or six people).
It might also be worth noting (again) something that has been said multiple times in this thread: Gaudiguch's leaders are not hamstrung by the idea of losing their cushy positions, but by the perception that the administration will step in due to complaints from the discontent (never mind that they are the same five or six people).
Gregori2010-08-05 16:41:32
It also really helps that the mighty alt uprising ends up with half of the vocal minority turning into shrubberies each election.
Gaudiguch doing what it can for Mother Nature.
Gaudiguch doing what it can for Mother Nature.
seron2010-08-05 16:47:54
QUOTE (Talan @ Aug 5 2010, 02:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From what it sounds like, this is a situation where a clique might be well employed, provided your standards for entry into it are limited to a. not deliberately annoying and b. attempt to be helpful. Get it a clan, keep it ic of course, and use this clan channel as your ct. Develop your rules and your culture there, amongst people who understand that there must be some, as well as leaders to make the decisions, and won't fight the very notion of it. Freely welcome anyone who is remotely keen.
Ignore the rabble coming from outside as best as you can. Let them act like fools, just tune them out as much as you're able. Accept that there is going to be some degree of idiocy in the org. After all, not everyone who indulges in the various vices featured in Gaudiguch will come out enlightened - some will just come out as druken sluts and blithering morons, and that's fine. I don't claim to know much about how things work in Gaudiguch, but from the outside looking in, it seems like there would be several veils of mystery to lift. So make the first one, 'where do you find the good people?'
You won't be able to eliminate all the drama this way, but at the very least you might be able to raise the level of the argument to what is right for Gaudiguch, as opposed to what is right for me, and me, and me, and me, right now! You will not be able to get everyone on the same page, but at least you will have a place where everyone is reading the same book.
As far as getting along in the new-city group, you might need to be a bit forgiving. While some people are born idiots, other people can learn from negative experiences and shouldn't be perennially excluded if they've shown they can. If they even try, they are the kind of people you want to work with.
Since this seemed to be an honest plea for advice, that's mine.
Ignore the rabble coming from outside as best as you can. Let them act like fools, just tune them out as much as you're able. Accept that there is going to be some degree of idiocy in the org. After all, not everyone who indulges in the various vices featured in Gaudiguch will come out enlightened - some will just come out as druken sluts and blithering morons, and that's fine. I don't claim to know much about how things work in Gaudiguch, but from the outside looking in, it seems like there would be several veils of mystery to lift. So make the first one, 'where do you find the good people?'
You won't be able to eliminate all the drama this way, but at the very least you might be able to raise the level of the argument to what is right for Gaudiguch, as opposed to what is right for me, and me, and me, and me, right now! You will not be able to get everyone on the same page, but at least you will have a place where everyone is reading the same book.
As far as getting along in the new-city group, you might need to be a bit forgiving. While some people are born idiots, other people can learn from negative experiences and shouldn't be perennially excluded if they've shown they can. If they even try, they are the kind of people you want to work with.
Since this seemed to be an honest plea for advice, that's mine.
I actually really like this advice, lets do it.
Unknown2010-08-05 16:51:29
It should be noted that there's another reason he wins too.
Most of his challenges come in the form of "I'm not Gregori *cough* I mean Kalin!"
While I'm sure within their circle, that seems like a compelling argument, to the outsider, it's a nothing argument. I will not draw political opinion into this, but from a campaign strategy perspective, learn the lesson of Kerry v. Bush. No matter how much you may dislike the other person? No matter how obviously he or she needs to be removed from your perspective, assuming that everyone else would put anyone up in place of the incumbent is a nearly unwinnable strategy.
And yet, when these prior challenges have come, they tend to be about Kalin- "he didn't do this", "he did do that". Very little is said about what the challenger intends to do, what they are about, what their long term goals are and how they plan to accomplish them. These are important things.
Most of his challenges come in the form of "I'm not Gregori *cough* I mean Kalin!"
While I'm sure within their circle, that seems like a compelling argument, to the outsider, it's a nothing argument. I will not draw political opinion into this, but from a campaign strategy perspective, learn the lesson of Kerry v. Bush. No matter how much you may dislike the other person? No matter how obviously he or she needs to be removed from your perspective, assuming that everyone else would put anyone up in place of the incumbent is a nearly unwinnable strategy.
And yet, when these prior challenges have come, they tend to be about Kalin- "he didn't do this", "he did do that". Very little is said about what the challenger intends to do, what they are about, what their long term goals are and how they plan to accomplish them. These are important things.
Gregori2010-08-05 16:58:01
Plus my contenders get shrubbed lately, that helps too.
Gaudiguch doing what it can for oxygen breathers everywhere.
Gaudiguch doing what it can for oxygen breathers everywhere.
Unknown2010-08-05 17:02:35
When the leaders of Glomdoring were called out for being oppressive and power-hungry and whatnot, the best thing that (some of) those leaders did was to step down. If people think they can do a better job than you, let them try. You may be surprised to find out that the organization does not actually need you. Or other people may realize how much they do need you and elect you with the intent of actually doing what you need them to do.
Shaddus2010-08-05 17:07:01
I still want to see more of these Druken sluts.
Unknown2010-08-05 17:07:38
QUOTE (Salvation @ Aug 5 2010, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When the leaders of Glomdoring were called out for being oppressive and power-hungry and whatnot, the best thing that (some of) those leaders did was to step down. If people think they can do a better job than you, let them try. You may be surprised to find out that the organization does not actually need you. Or other people may realize how much they do need you and elect you with the intent of actually doing what you need them to do.
QUOTE (Sarvasti @ Aug 5 2010, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know what, you should just give the city over to someone else. Let them run it if they think they can do a better job. If it works well clearly something wasn't working with you in charge. If it falls apart and they come running to you to fix it, shrug and say "but you're the leader now." Win win if you ask me.
:\\ no one reads my posts *sniffle*
Unknown2010-08-05 17:07:42
QUOTE (Salvation @ Aug 5 2010, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When the leaders of Glomdoring were called out for being oppressive and power-hungry and whatnot, the best thing that (some of) those leaders did was to step down.
I don't think this situation is comparable enough to old Glomdoring for this to make sense. Celest would be a better comparison, given the polarity between factions. I don't think they want to go down that same road, though!
Razenth2010-08-05 17:09:23
Please go back to your old avatar This one scares the creeps out of me.
Kaalak2010-08-05 17:12:28
QUOTE (Talan @ Aug 5 2010, 01:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From what it sounds like, this is a situation where a clique might be well employed, provided your standards for entry into it are limited to a. not deliberately annoying and b. attempt to be helpful. Get it a clan, keep it ic of course, and use this clan channel as your ct. Develop your rules and your culture there, amongst people who understand that there must be some, as well as leaders to make the decisions, and won't fight the very notion of it. Freely welcome anyone who is remotely keen.
Since a few people are supporting this I'm going to point out why its a bad idea in any organization (guild or city).
+ These 'Private' IC ruling clans only increase the drama in an organization. Take a look at the Jhagar drama on these forums, or the effect of the Celest 'special clan' on the recent Celest elections. And there are plenty other examples throughout lusternia history.
QUOTE (Gregori @ Aug 5 2010, 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
my big issue with the clan thing is this.
+ These scenarios are logical and correct. Private clans, even if run by the most egalitarian individual, are by nature, elitist. Some people will be excluded. Those excluded can/will feel slighted and complain. The only way to prevent this is with public clans (Star Council, Freedom Council, etc.) where any player can get into by some reasonably fair mechanism, namely elections.
+ One of the complaints about Gregori is that he is elitist (they may not have said this specifically but I'm summarizing here). If he establishes a private clan for the purpose of running the city, an enemy of Gregori could point to it and tell the admin 'Hey look, since the City Leader is running the city exclusively through this private clan he is violating one of the principles lusternia advertises on its website about player run organizations.' And the Admin would step in and say 'Hey don't have a private clan to run things.' Then you would be back to square one.
--------------------
QUOTE (Rainydays @ Aug 5 2010, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It should be noted that there's another reason he wins too.
Ixchilgal's Gaudiguch newspost has the right of it more than anything else.
Edited for clarity.
Razenth2010-08-05 17:18:46
But he hasn't posted... (unless it got removed, in which case it's pretty much the same thing)
Unknown2010-08-05 17:21:00
QUOTE (Razenth @ Aug 5 2010, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Please go back to your old avatar This one scares the creeps out of me.
Okay. I've had a few requests for a previous avatar anyways!
Gregori2010-08-05 17:28:13
Except that as pointed out if the animosity was as built up as people claim it is it wouldn't matter if they were good or bad candidates, and at least one of them wasn't a horrible choice. If people want me gone over 4 elections, I would have been gone. The fact that I won considerably in each election proves that the animosity is not as high as people make it out to be, it is just the same few people being loud and convincing their few friends to be loud too.
Razenth2010-08-05 17:32:31
Rodngar2010-08-05 17:43:50
The 'anarchist city' bit will never work. The clan thing will never work either. We're looking for ways to establish order and authority in the city, not for ways to establish a clan to establish order and authority for just people in a clan. You cannot establish clan laws as city laws. The clan will only provide credence to Kalin's supposed 'elitism' and about how 'nobody is recognized' because everybody who is recognized will be in the clan, and those people in that clan will be getting those rewards, so they'll be the new corrupt in crowd.
I support simply charging forward and establishing laws. Or, we can just let the city go down in flames until the Admin tell us we should start doing something, to which we could just say "uh, our hands are tied, we can't make laws!" or say "oh, you're telling us we can establish laws now? Great!". Honestly, we're pussyfooting about the issue because if we make one wrong move, a vocal minority will cry wolf, we'll get a talking to or be forced to step down, and then the city WILL go down in the flames, because none of the average citizens of Gaudiguch are really doing anything to contribute, nor are they leadership material. If it wasn't so obvious I was a Kalin supporter IC, I'd offer to switch jobs with him.
I support simply charging forward and establishing laws. Or, we can just let the city go down in flames until the Admin tell us we should start doing something, to which we could just say "uh, our hands are tied, we can't make laws!" or say "oh, you're telling us we can establish laws now? Great!". Honestly, we're pussyfooting about the issue because if we make one wrong move, a vocal minority will cry wolf, we'll get a talking to or be forced to step down, and then the city WILL go down in the flames, because none of the average citizens of Gaudiguch are really doing anything to contribute, nor are they leadership material. If it wasn't so obvious I was a Kalin supporter IC, I'd offer to switch jobs with him.