Estarra2010-09-02 17:29:50
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Sep 2 2010, 10:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nobody is telling you the overhaul was a bad idea to do. We are just saying that (edit: as implemented) it's a massive increase in prices along with a doubling of comm costs...
Er, sure people are saying it was a bad idea -- see Revan's post where he didn't even know there was no problem.
Anyway, you'll note that throughout this week that adjustments have been made and cities and communes have been getting increasingly more free comms (which they can price however they want). We're also in the middle of doing more tweaks that will likely drive village prices down. So, again, I say to trust us. The system is still relatively new but we'll eventually strike the right balance.
Talan2010-09-02 17:34:07
QUOTE (Estarra @ Sep 2 2010, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yup, they were the base prices in the old commodity system.
Would you explain why you chose to increase them then? I agree with you that given enough time, people will adjust to your new prices. My concern is that in this, you made changes based off whatever numbers were plugged into the old code, rather than looking at the real economy, and without understanding players' value of things.
200 gold for steel might be a fair price to you. To us, this is double its worth. If you tell me that this is intentional, I will mutter and readjust... but this feels like maybe these average value prices were assigned without regard to how we value them. Looking at the system, I certainly understand the need to value them up from what they were (to us) a little, as there is no price floor, and no stock cap, and thus the system calls for a longer downward slope toward 1gp prices. Yet we are seeing 400, 500, 600 of an item in stock in villages, and the sell prices with these quantities still seem too high to many.
Estarra2010-09-02 17:36:43
QUOTE (Talan @ Sep 2 2010, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Would you explain why you chose to increase them then?
I didn't choose to increase prices, I used what we had.
You'll continue to see adjustments and rather than trying to make it sound like I arbitrarily raised prices under you, you can work with me and provide constructive feedback which I'll listen to.
Talan2010-09-02 17:47:41
QUOTE (Estarra @ Sep 2 2010, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You'll continue to see adjustments and rather than trying to make it sound like I arbitrarily raised prices under you, you can work with me and provide constructive feedback which I'll listen to.
I'm not trying to imply that you arbitrarily raised the prices under us for no reason, I am simply worried that players' value of items isn't reaching you. My trying to explain that the average prices we are now seeing in villages are higher than what we have come to expect is intended to be constructive feedback. I love that the comms system got attention and I certainly appreciate that no small amount of hard work goes into tweaking it. I realize that likely even small adjustments in the hard numbers that you have plugged in will have large impact on prices, so I understand that this is careful work.
tl;dr constructive feedback: stock/tithes seem to be leveling out, yay!...prices still a bit higher than we might be content with.
Ileein2010-09-02 18:09:30
Constructive feedback, then:
+ I am glad the commodity system has been revamped to make it easier to work with. This is a substantially good thing to hear, given what I'd heard of the nightmare of the old system.
- Doubled or even tripled commodity prices on top of doubled commodity requirements leads to prices for items which are 4x or even 6x what they used to be. This leads to one of two problems, depending on the item:
-Purely RP items (think most clothing other than robes/suits, or many types of furniture) become even more expensive. Those who would previously have purchased them will, by and large, reconsider.
-Items with utility (think robes/suits) become massively more expensive. Given that these are a baseline for combat or even, to a large degree, hunting, this makes it even harder to get into combat and get ready for life in Lusternia for a newbie, something I do not think we want.
+ I understand tithes are getting closer to being normal, so that's good.
+ I am glad the commodity system has been revamped to make it easier to work with. This is a substantially good thing to hear, given what I'd heard of the nightmare of the old system.
- Doubled or even tripled commodity prices on top of doubled commodity requirements leads to prices for items which are 4x or even 6x what they used to be. This leads to one of two problems, depending on the item:
-Purely RP items (think most clothing other than robes/suits, or many types of furniture) become even more expensive. Those who would previously have purchased them will, by and large, reconsider.
-Items with utility (think robes/suits) become massively more expensive. Given that these are a baseline for combat or even, to a large degree, hunting, this makes it even harder to get into combat and get ready for life in Lusternia for a newbie, something I do not think we want.
+ I understand tithes are getting closer to being normal, so that's good.
Daraius2010-09-02 18:27:15
There's too much negative meat in that constructive criticism sandwich, but I agree with the points raised. 
EDIT: Really I just wanted an excuse to use the term 'negative meat.'
EDIT: Really I just wanted an excuse to use the term 'negative meat.'
Shaddus2010-09-02 18:38:45
What Ileein said.
I don't want the admin to think I'm ungrateful that they are working on things they consider a problem. To the contrary, it's how the admin often work on the "small things" that makes me happy. To be honest, my primary concern is the raising of requirements for "vital" things, like instruments, robes and so on. Also a question, if comm requirements are raised and prices raised, why wasn't alchemy/lorecraftting/herbs touched?
I don't want the admin to think I'm ungrateful that they are working on things they consider a problem. To the contrary, it's how the admin often work on the "small things" that makes me happy. To be honest, my primary concern is the raising of requirements for "vital" things, like instruments, robes and so on. Also a question, if comm requirements are raised and prices raised, why wasn't alchemy/lorecraftting/herbs touched?
Xavius2010-09-02 18:42:15
Village prices are out of whack. Tithes are up, which is great if you have a village, but for the poor guy running Trade in a villageless city, it's terrible. Because prices and stock are so closely tied together, and stock drops like a brick with painful frequency, you end up spending a lot of time just coaxing a village back to a workable price so that you can spend more time doing comm quests for comms that can be reasonably purchased. It also means that passively produced commodities are basically unavailable unless you own the village that makes them (and maybe even then, since I haven't seen numbers posted on that recently). I can't go questing for silver or iron. I acknowledge that I might be getting hit harder than most by that, but every org is going to go through periods where they don't have a village that naturally produces everything they need. Village prices are important, and 700 gold silk is unreasonable.
Most of those are highly unreasonable. Wood is mostly unobtainable, so that's just what wood costs here. I have trouble believing that someone actually bought wood here that cost 400 gold each, so the reason it costs that much is something you've changed in the last week. There's not enough hay or sheep in the world to get that cloth down to 35 gold before Serenwilde steals it all back in the tithe. Rope is passively produced here, and they have all the farmers, so that's basically the absolute lowest that's going to go. Eggshell fieldplate, here we come!
CODE
Proprietor: Stewartsville.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                          7          411 gp
Leather                    231          65 gp
Cloth                        29          242 gp
Rope                        461          60 gp
Gems                        35          385 gp
Meat                        93          50 gp
Silk                          2          732 gp
Milk                        132          17 gp
Poultry                      94          40 gp
Fish                        139          35 gp
Vegetables                    1          87 gp
Eggs                        99          10 gp
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                          7          411 gp
Leather                    231          65 gp
Cloth                        29          242 gp
Rope                        461          60 gp
Gems                        35          385 gp
Meat                        93          50 gp
Silk                          2          732 gp
Milk                        132          17 gp
Poultry                      94          40 gp
Fish                        139          35 gp
Vegetables                    1          87 gp
Eggs                        99          10 gp
Most of those are highly unreasonable. Wood is mostly unobtainable, so that's just what wood costs here. I have trouble believing that someone actually bought wood here that cost 400 gold each, so the reason it costs that much is something you've changed in the last week. There's not enough hay or sheep in the world to get that cloth down to 35 gold before Serenwilde steals it all back in the tithe. Rope is passively produced here, and they have all the farmers, so that's basically the absolute lowest that's going to go. Eggshell fieldplate, here we come!
Nariah2010-09-02 18:49:50
The above is a very important point - having tithes come out of actual stock seems like a very bad idea. Not only does it make it impossible to lower prices through work unless a whole day is devoted to it with undivided attention, it also tends to throw prices totally out of the window if the stock is already low. It also seems to be punishing the players somewhat in that if they actually buy from their nation's village, their org is getting less in tithes.
Jayden2010-09-02 19:19:36
QUOTE (Talan @ Sep 2 2010, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
200 gold for steel might be a fair price to you. To us, this is double its worth.
Uh... umm metal commodities used to always be around this price in the early days (pre-Glomdoring) which is why there was so much fighting over the mountain villages and killing of dwarves and crowning of queens and such. Granted this was years ago, but 100 gold wasnt always the norm... we got spoiled.
Talan2010-09-02 19:40:37
QUOTE (Xavius @ Sep 2 2010, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Village prices are out of whack. Tithes are up, which is great if you have a village, but for the poor guy running Trade in a villageless city, it's terrible. Because prices and stock are so closely tied together, and stock drops like a brick with painful frequency, you end up spending a lot of time just coaxing a village back to a workable price so that you can spend more time doing comm quests for comms that can be reasonably purchased. It also means that passively produced commodities are basically unavailable unless you own the village that makes them (and maybe even then, since I haven't seen numbers posted on that recently). I can't go questing for silver or iron. I acknowledge that I might be getting hit harder than most by that, but every org is going to go through periods where they don't have a village that naturally produces everything they need. Village prices are important, and 700 gold silk is unreasonable.
Most of those are highly unreasonable. Wood is mostly unobtainable, so that's just what wood costs here. I have trouble believing that someone actually bought wood here that cost 400 gold each, so the reason it costs that much is something you've changed in the last week. There's not enough hay or sheep in the world to get that cloth down to 35 gold before Serenwilde steals it all back in the tithe. Rope is passively produced here, and they have all the farmers, so that's basically the absolute lowest that's going to go. Eggshell fieldplate, here we come!
Most of those are highly unreasonable. Wood is mostly unobtainable, so that's just what wood costs here. I have trouble believing that someone actually bought wood here that cost 400 gold each, so the reason it costs that much is something you've changed in the last week. There's not enough hay or sheep in the world to get that cloth down to 35 gold before Serenwilde steals it all back in the tithe. Rope is passively produced here, and they have all the farmers, so that's basically the absolute lowest that's going to go. Eggshell fieldplate, here we come!
Earlier in the week there was a weird thing where all villages tithed their full stock... what is coming back up in all the villages now are the things they naturally produce, or things that have been added via quests. Stewartsville does not produce wood or silk (If they do, it's at such a tiny rate as to be inconsequential - my guess would be that these are in stock at all because of quest turn ins), and thus without extensive questing, these items will never be available at this particular village at a reasonable price. By contrast, Stewartsville does produce fish, eggs, leather, meat, poultry, and rope en masse, and these prices are right on target with what Estarra posted as base prices.
QUOTE (Jayden @ Sep 2 2010, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Uh... umm metal commodities used to always be around this price in the early days (pre-Glomdoring) which is why there was so much fighting over the mountain villages and killing of dwarves and crowning of queens and such. Granted this was years ago, but 100 gold wasnt always the norm... we got spoiled.
I have no idea what the prices were in the game's early days, and while I could guess at several reasons why prices might have been higher then (demand, ignorance, stockpiling), I can only speak for the last 2 years or so, where prices have been lower and relatively stable.
Unknown2010-09-02 19:46:15
If I'm understanding Estarra correctly we should probably keep in mind that 200 for steel was always what was intended. As time went on those numbers got screwed up by glitches in the system.
Xenthos2010-09-02 20:01:46
QUOTE (Othero @ Sep 2 2010, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If I'm understanding Estarra correctly we should probably keep in mind that 200 for steel was always what was intended. As time went on those numbers got screwed up by glitches in the system.
Which... doesn't make dealing with it any easier. Especially when commodity costs were also doubled.
That's what we the players are saying about the prices; these base prices are really looking too high, here.
Everiine2010-09-02 20:11:09
I see a disparity in that the price system is set up to prevent people from just buying out the stock of a village. But when comm prices doubled, and a suit of field plate went from 80 steel to 160 steel... stock is going to drop VERY quickly, which the new price system was meant to discourage. That doesn't seem right.
Xavius2010-09-02 20:19:51
QUOTE (Everiine @ Sep 2 2010, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I see a disparity in that the price system is set up to prevent people from just buying out the stock of a village. But when comm prices doubled, and a suit of field plate went from 80 steel to 160 steel... stock is going to drop VERY quickly, which the new price system was meant to discourage. That doesn't seem right.
That's actually another real point. We're used to looking at prices as the purchase price for the whole thing. Even now, eggshell fieldplate is going to cost as much as iron and leather fieldplate would have back then if you're forced to buy from villages unless you take the time to quest for reasonable prices. All of the prices are simply too volatile, and if the system is trying to make these base prices the actual prices for the first ten comms that we buy, our actual costs are going to be very high.
Xiel2010-09-02 21:11:37
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Sep 2 2010, 04:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You can ask players to cope. I don't think you can reasonably ask players to be happy, which is what these posts are about; there is much unhappiness floating about from this whole fiasco.
Piffle, I'm not asking folk to be happy for no reason. I know I'm not particularly cheery about how things went, though I still think that - though nice for the administration to have an easier working commodity system - people hoping for things to go back to how they were won't work. Best to just go ahead with how things are and try and tweak things that'll go hand in hand with the changes instead of fighting it.
/derail
Lendren2010-09-02 23:09:16
QUOTE (Jayden @ Sep 2 2010, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Uh... umm metal commodities used to always be around this price in the early days (pre-Glomdoring) which is why there was so much fighting over the mountain villages and killing of dwarves and crowning of queens and such. Granted this was years ago, but 100 gold wasnt always the norm... we got spoiled.
However, lots of things have been balanced based on those prices. The amount of time it takes to earn N gold hasn't changed. How valuable and useful the things we make hasn't changed -- and in many cases, attempts to get them changed have been turned down because they were in a good spot, as proven by the fact that people did buy them from time to time. But suddenly the things cost 4-6x as much to make. If you make things people need, like robes, that's upsetting, because people are clamoring but unable to afford it. If you make things that people barely found worth the cost beforehand, like cabinets, that means you have no business. Saying we got spoiled doesn't help: if a cabinet costs as much gold as you can earn in N hours, and that's way more than a cabinet is worth, then "spoiled" just means that accidentally, for a while, cabinets (and the rest of Artisan) was almost kinda worth having. If how it is now is how it was intended to be, then it was always intended that Artisan, Bookbinding, and to a lesser extent all the other creativity-based skills were always meant to be completely a waste of time, and that's why they cost more than the ones that make good money and haven't gotten triple-nerfed lately. It just means things were always broken and we only just found out.
That said, Estarra says there are still tweaks going on and, as disheartening as things currently are (imagine how it is for me, with 1000cr into a doctoral cord so I can have six nerfed tradeskills) I think we should give it some more time.
Talan2010-09-03 00:30:40
CODE
Immediately before the weave:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Immediately after the weave:
Proprietor: Estelbar.                                        Proprietor: Estelbar.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At      Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                        576          72 gp            Wood                        487          85 gp
Proprietor: Rikenfriez.                                      Proprietor: Rikenfriez.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At      Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                        339          73 gp            Wood                        257          90 gp
Proprietor: Shanthmark.                                  Proprietor: Shanthmark.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At      Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                        210          80 gp            Wood                        165          90 gp
Proprietor: Paavik.                                          Proprietor: Paavik.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At      Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                        211          80 gp            Wood                        165          90 gp
revlog glomdoring 0 1 wood
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Estelbar tithed 29 wood commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Paavik tithed 16 wood commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Shanthmark tithed 13 wood commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Rikenfriez tithed 21 wood commodities
Proprietor: Estelbar.                                        Proprietor: Estelbar.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At      Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                        576          72 gp            Wood                        487          85 gp
Proprietor: Rikenfriez.                                      Proprietor: Rikenfriez.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At      Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                        339          73 gp            Wood                        257          90 gp
Proprietor: Shanthmark.                                  Proprietor: Shanthmark.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At      Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                        210          80 gp            Wood                        165          90 gp
Proprietor: Paavik.                                          Proprietor: Paavik.
Commodity                Stock      We Sell At      Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Wood                        211          80 gp            Wood                        165          90 gp
revlog glomdoring 0 1 wood
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Estelbar tithed 29 wood commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Paavik tithed 16 wood commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Shanthmark tithed 13 wood commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Rikenfriez tithed 21 wood commodities
So there are 79 wood being given to Glomdoring from tithes, and there are 262 being taken out of the villages. Today, this seemed to happen with every commodity... where there seem to be some missing stock. I only choose wood because it's so hard to come by in general, and 183 vanished wood makes more than just me twitch. I hope it's a bug... any idea what's going on here?
Just to show..
CODE
Immediately before the weave:Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Immediately after the weave:
Proprietor: Ixthiaxa.                                  Proprietor: Ixthiaxa.
Commodity                Stock    We Sell At    Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Steel                      109          182 gp        Steel                        90          212 gp
Iron                        164          113 gp        Iron                        135          132 gp
Coal                        55          31 gp          Coal                        46          35 gp
Platinum                    55          139 gp        Platinum                    46          155 gp Â
Cloth                      164          45 gp        Cloth                      136          50 gp
Gold                        55          135 gp        Gold                        46          150 gp
Rope                        55          54 gp        Rope                        46          60 gp
Gems                        129          177 gp      Gems                        103          242 gp
Silver                      55          130 gp        Silver                      45          153 gp
Marble                      546          113 gp      Marble                      476          125 gp
Meat                        109          45 gp        Meat                        91          50 gp
Silk                        110          112 gp        Silk                        91          125 gp
Fish                        110          31 gp        Fish                        91          35 gp
revlog glomdoring 0 1 ixthiaxa
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 7 steel commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 9 cloth commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 3 rope commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 7 meat commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 6 silk commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 7 fish commodities
Proprietor: Ixthiaxa.                                  Proprietor: Ixthiaxa.
Commodity                Stock    We Sell At    Commodity                Stock      We Sell At
Steel                      109          182 gp        Steel                        90          212 gp
Iron                        164          113 gp        Iron                        135          132 gp
Coal                        55          31 gp          Coal                        46          35 gp
Platinum                    55          139 gp        Platinum                    46          155 gp Â
Cloth                      164          45 gp        Cloth                      136          50 gp
Gold                        55          135 gp        Gold                        46          150 gp
Rope                        55          54 gp        Rope                        46          60 gp
Gems                        129          177 gp      Gems                        103          242 gp
Silver                      55          130 gp        Silver                      45          153 gp
Marble                      546          113 gp      Marble                      476          125 gp
Meat                        109          45 gp        Meat                        91          50 gp
Silk                        110          112 gp        Silk                        91          125 gp
Fish                        110          31 gp        Fish                        91          35 gp
revlog glomdoring 0 1 ixthiaxa
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 7 steel commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 9 cloth commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 3 rope commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 7 meat commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 6 silk commodities
2010/09/03 00:01:00 - Ixthiaxa tithed 7 fish commodities
Unaccounted for:
12 steel, 29 iron, 9 coal, 9 platinum, 19 cloth, 9 gold, 6 cloth, 10 silver, 70 marble, 11 meat, 13 silk, 12 fish
Razenth2010-09-03 00:59:36
Vermilla's been having trouble finding grain of all things. Anyone else?
Xavius2010-09-03 01:04:58
QUOTE (Talan @ Sep 2 2010, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Numbers
More disturbing there is how some of those commodities are things that the village should be passively producing by the quest denizens, like geomyci. (I'm assuming that Glomdoring has them in Ixthiaxa instead of Ptoma.) If the dwarven villages are doing the same thing, the game economy is going to collapse.
