But what would happen to that house if the family stopped being the greatest? Would the house just poof away, or would ownership be transferred, or would it create a hole in the time space continuum that'd cause all sorts of temporal havoc and make people blame the Institute for yet another mishap?

The point is that these perks are for everyone. Scrap the whole competitive nature of it all and just let Great Houses work towards what they want.

I'd guess that if the family just fades into obscurity (ie. not even one member logs in for an x-amount of days/months), the house would start to crumble away. This is, assuming of course, that I'm understanding the proposal to make the Family Honour mechanic into something tangible as opposed to some cultural perks? :S

Edit: Oh, and also, I agree with just simplifying the system down. Something to spend that honour on would be dandy for more arpeee stuff.

What about having quests that give honor lines affect family honor?

I don't have time to read the thread, but this is what I'd like to see.


Lesser families tied directly to others.


For instance, I'm marrying into the Kalas family, but my children (and wife, hopefully) will be bearing the m'Viraz name. All m'Viraz members will be Kalas, but not the converse. I'd like to actually be considered the founder of the m'Viraz family and have it mechanically recognized beyond title changes.

Sort of like a banner house, but one spawned from a great house. Perhaps require the head of the great house to consent to this type of "break off."

- 1000 honour, add a denizen into a 'house'.
- 500 honour, add a room to 'house'
- 1000 more honour per add: add stuff to these denizens, like mail-carry, shop-tend..
- 300 honour, add an object into a 'house'.
- 100 honour, add ambiance message to room
- 100 honour, add a reaction to a house denizen

Example:

Talnara greathouse decides it wants a house with two rooms to start inside Serenwilde.

They then decide to add an elfen denizen to their 'house' that works as a mail-carrier, and one that functions as a shop-dweller.

They want their shop-dweller mob to make rude gestures at family members from Glomdoring that sneak into Serenwilde to raid their house like a meanie.

Talnara greathouse also decides they want a tree in the entryway of their house (crazy foresty bastards they are). They want this tree to not just be a tree, but some awesome prismatic tree of awesome, and add They decide to add 2 different ambiance messages to the room that has the tree in it to reflect the awesomeness of the tree.


House cost: 2000 honour
Second room: 500 honour
First dweller: 1000 honour
Second dweller: 1000 honour
Shoptending: 1000 honour
Mailcarrier: 1000 honour
Object (tree 1): 300 honour
Ambiance for tree 1's room: 200 honour (100 per)
Reaction from shop dweller: 100 honour

-------------------------------
Total: 7100 honour

Family honour of Greathouses as it currently stands:

The Great House of Talnara 2136 honour (Noble)
The Great House of Mes'ard 326 honour (Respected)
The Great House of Kalas 143 honour (Respected)
The Great House of d'Murani 4 honour (Obscure)
The Great House of Dekoven -63 honour (Dishonourable)



Meaning: Takes forever and a half to do, so there's a lot of time to think about things before you do them

I don't think the whole Family honor thing needs scrapped. If we get rid of all the honour people earn every month you might as well scrap the system altogether. Even with perks, the family system pretty pointless if everything you do gets thrown away every month. I don't mind a competition, but it's not really a fair competition right now. The playing field needs to be somewhat leveled for that. Families shouldn't have to be large to be honorable.

Even though some of (or all) of this was said before I'd like these things to be focused on:

* Raise the amount of honour families get for being in office. (I know I earned honour during my 39 years as GA, but the increase was negligible).

* Have more things that aren't combat related one can do to gain honour:
-Publishing books and wining prestige
-Winning the Bardics/Art contest
-Questing
-Getting favours (and alternatively disfavours) from divine
-Getting favours (and alternatively disfavours) from communities/guilds

* Lower the amount that's lost from people leaving a family.

The problem with having single parents is that you could have anyone just about anyone adopt the kid after you have. I know that Fania would never want a child with someone who is from Mag.

A shot in the dark with a whisper of wishful thinking, but.. having family dark honour would be awesome.

Instead of being obscure, respected, noble, etc it would be a "dark" counterpart of say..

Obscure
Pain in the butt
FEARED AIEE!
etc

Edit:

And this should be broken down into two sections I) Family adopting and structure problems/bugs and II) Family honour tweaks
===================
Gaining and Losing Honour
-------------------------

Honour is gained by...
* Holding elected seats of power. This honour is gained naturally
over time. (Trivial, should be doubled)
* Winning a ranked arena spar against a member of another Great House
* Honour is only won if the losing family has equal or greater
honour to your own House's. There is no honour in defeating a
weaker House. (Fine)
* Offering at the shrines of the family's patron. (1 million per 1 honour is too much compared to the influencing bonus)
* Village influencing on behalf of the city or commune with which the
Great House is aligned. (Fine as is, around 1h every 1-2 named denizens influenced)
* A family member triumphing in the arena combat rankings. (Needs to be doubles maybe even tripled, this is done every RL month only, and is negligible given the timeframe)
* Accepting new members into the family. (Fine)
* Welcoming disowned family members back into the House. (no idea)
* The family being accepted into a city or commune. (no idea/fine I'm sure)
Shame is brought upon the family by...
* Decaying naturally over time, as without new deeds even the most
renowned families fade into obscurity. (Natural decay will not take
a family's honour below 0.) (Significant over time, fine)
* Losing a ranked arena duel against a member of another Great House
* Honour is only lost if the other House gains honour from the duel.
* A member divorcing or rejecting the family. (Fine, hurts)
* Disowning a family member.
* The family leaving or being kicked out of a city or commune. (-1h, fine)
* A family member leaving or being kicked out of the city or commune
with which the family is aligned.
* Killing denizens that are loyal to the city or commune with which the
family is aligned, including its guilds, villages, and other aligned
territories (notably Nil, Celestia, Moonspirit, and Nightspirit).
* Killing any person who is not a city, guild, or order enemy of the
family member who killed them. (Annoying to manage since killing for reincarnation falls under this)

I think there should be more ways of gaining honour too.

Also, thought: can these houses be made outside of organizational bounds but within the Prime Material plane? I mean, I'd think it'd be more interesting to build like out into the world rather than shoving more things into the bustling cities or the foresty communes. I mean, you could if you want to, build in Hallifax or Celest, sure, but if I can build a seaside mansion on an offshoot near the beach or a snow-capped mountain for double the price, I'd think that'd be dandy.

That's why I offered two options for buying a house via honour. Outside city and inside city.

<--Totally too lazy to read it all. I still wants it.

Physical houses seem kind of silly considering that we can build elaborate manses, and many (most?) families have already done so...

but it's not a REAL house, it's a manse. Pssh

I would like a way to get information of note about a family, such that if it is requested of myself to join one, I would be able to know a little of what I am getting into. Like... HELP CANTORS but for families. If this exists already, my apologies.

That's a good point! Perhaps one perk of being a large enough family (or even a historical house!!) could be the ability to have a help file.

In reply to Estarra's comments, here's my explanations. You usually ask us for concise lists so that's why I left it so short. I mostly copied ideas from other threads precisely the way they were posted there, which probably needs more explanation.

• Smaller houses (members>=4?) allowing themselves to count (possibly with a lessened weight) toward larger ones
  Estarra: Not sure I know what this means.
  Explanation: This is something that is bothering a lot of people. They found families and before these families have a chance to grow, some of its members stop playing and the family dies off. Whilst that is perfectly reasonable it leaves the 1-2 people left behind in an uncomfortable situation, especially if they are the founders. The best example here is Xenthos. The solution is:
  - allow tiny families to pledge to other families.
  - allow tiny families to be disbanded entirely so that the founder can find a new family whether by founding it or being adopted into one. This is currently impossible since having founded a family, even if you reject it, you cannot get adopted anymore even if you haven't had parents previously.
  
  
• Be able to OUST/DISOWN people from the family for all families
  Estarra: Once you're in a family, the record is there for life but I believe (not sure) that family heads of Great Houses can ostracize a family member (making that person inactive).
  Explanation: Yes, we are aware that such a power is already put in place. The problem, however, is that it is accessible only to Great Houses. Not only does it take forever and some to make a Great House (especially if you are looking for quality), but also by that time the black elfen sheep that is intentionally screwing the family over will have married a furrikin and reproduced twenty merians (Magnagoran example). The solution is:
  - please allow -all- families access to this power. In the case of families without Family Heads, several members of the family would be required to support this process. Sort of like ostracising from a city. One could never oust founders.
  
  
• Able to bequeathe something (manse, clan, whatever) to the family, similar to the way items/manses/clans/etc can be deeded to guilds
  Estarra: Not sure about this.
  Explanation: Even if this only applied to Lesser Houses and up, it would still be a big step. Often time the family chips in together for a manse or shop and then the current holder of the deed quits without handing it over or intentionally screws the rest of the family over. This is very, very nasty behaviour and I have seen it many times.
  
  
• Family members being able to FT PROBATE family members
  Estarra: Not sure I understand what this means.
  Explanation: This is something Gregori asked for. He would like founders or the Family Head to be able to put someone in the family on probation, which would take away their privileges to talk over the Family Aether. Or even hear the aether too and maybe even read and post to the family news board.
  Solution:
  - FAMILY PROBATE or FAMILY MUTE
  
  
• The ability for a single sibling to be able to BLOODBOND into a family if they are progenitors (similar to the above idea for adoption)
  Estarra: What idea for adoption? In any event, adoption and birth are the same thing (either way, you're the child of your parents and are in there for life).
  Explanation: I seem to have deleted the idea it refers to, nonetheless, I believe we already have that. The idea requests that progenitors be able to bloodbond new siblings in alone if the other sibling is dormant and thus unable to confirm the process.
  
  
• The ability for already established siblings to BLOODBOND into a family founded by their siblings.
  Estarra: I don't understand this.
  Explanation: I believe the idea here is that if Alonzo and Cecil are siblings in the d'Murani, and Alonzo rejects the d'Murani and founds a family of his own with his wife, Cecil wants to be able to join that family alongside Alonzo as a progenitor. Currently this cannot be done, I believe, because a new family has to be found through bloodbonding, something people with parents cannot do.
  
  
• Resetting Honour {once|annually|biannually|{once|twice} a decade} but giving the highest ranking ones a small boost to begin with.
  Estarra: Not sure.
  Explanation: We are asking for this or some equivalent, even if it doesn't make much sense, because it is neigh impossible to catch up to old Great Houses by new Great Houses. At least at present. And it does make sense that an old family remains influential, especially if their members continue working hard, but as long as being the Most Honourable Great House gives the culture bonus, it throws the whole culture system off balance. A 500 culture bonus is immense.
  Solutions:
  - implement an 'Honour Shop', things for a family to spend its honour on. Personally, however, I don't think this will solve anything long as that culture bonus is there and this powerful. Will Talnaras really risk losing 500 power monthly because they want a pretty house? Clearly they don't love their commune enough if they do, those cheap bastards!
  - increase passive drain once the family reaches certain threshold, sort of like with taxes. So the more honourable the family is, the hardest it is for them to maintain that status because people expect so much from them. And all losses would be greater the higher on the scale you are, because you would be shaming your fine family so (could perhaps apply only to the current most honourable family). Similarly, certain actions that earn honour, would be stronger for less known families because people would be so awed.
  
  
• Decreasing the cultural impact Most honourable house confers on the score. (500 to {100-200}).
  Estarra: Doable (but not sure).
  Explanation: As someone who has been a Librarian for almost three real years now, I can say with confidence that this is really throwing the whole system off balance. Fastest Growing Library nets only 300 points and is very hard to get with 6 libraries competing and trying to one up each other. Winning prestige is 500 points, very influential and very important. Being the most scholarly or literary library is just 300 points per too. And often time Magnagora won one prestige, and was the fastest growing library, and the most scholarly library, and the most literary library, and simply awesome; and Serenwilde still got the title of Cultural Centre.
  Solution:
  - remove this bonus entirely
  - lower the bonus significantly (perhaps dependent on the amount of honour a family has?)
  - give them a different bonus
  
  
• Being able to adopt without everyone being required to be there at the same time (for active parents).
  Estarra: Don't really like that. At some point, everyone should be able to be there to go through the paperwork (if they're really interested in being in a family, they should find a way). Again, "adoption" is irrelevant in our family system. Either you're children or not (which could be RP'ed as adoption or birth or whatever).
  Explanation: This specific idea does not promote single parents. This idea helps the parents and child that all live in a different timezone and keep on missing each other online. This is really frustrating and sometimes takes weeks even to get started, wasting the time that another adoption could be using up already. We would simply like for a parent to file an application at the Hall of Records with the child (so at least 2 people are present) and the second parent would have to sign it at the Halls when they log on to get the process started.
  
  
• Small perks for families to be bought with gold/credits.
  Estarra: Don't know what this means.
  Explanation: This is what people have already mentioned in this thread, being able to buy something for your family: such as a house or special family only emote.
  
  
• Allow for the case that only one parent considers the child should the other be inactive. Can requite twice the time and/or approval of the family head.
  Estarra: Don't really like this. I want there always to be two parents.
  Explanation: I would also like to reiterate the explanation for this that, I think, Krackenor or Vashner gave:
  
  - When your spouse suddenly stops playing, your only option if you want to continue adopting children is to divorce and marry another person.
  Comment: This is frustrating because it demands of the people who married in to either leave the family they have joined and grew to love, or never have another child.
  
  -This prevents you from further propagating a family name which originally wasn't yours.
  Comment: This means exactly the same thing as above. If Alonzo d'Murani married Bubencia and brought her into the family, and they lived happily ever after till he went dormant, Bubencia has grown to love the d'Murani as if they were her blood relatives. Alonzo vanishing means she can no longer serve the family much in the kids department. This makes them a dead-end.
  
  Solution: If one parent adoptions are out of question, perhaps allow founders/Family Head to bring someone into the family through other means. I think Talan mentioned it in this thread earlier. Sort of, take them under their wing and give the family name without actually adopting or bloodbonding them. I can't come up with a good name for it. In this scenario, Bubencia d'Murani could divorce Alonzo but still be a d'Murani, with the family's blessing, and take on a new husband.

I still need to write up my awesome org-centered family idea! So exhausted from writing what's above though, it will have to wait till tomorrow.

Mmm Mag Great House ideas... bring it on Nari!

I only have one request.

Please, please, please make being a Lesser House desirable, instead of being a curse. Getting it does not put you anywhere near Great House, and there's too much to lose in the time to takes to get to your end goal, nevermind that in order to get there you will be encouraged to do things that would mar your honour more (divorcing inactive spouses, etc). Either make the leap from Lesser House to Great House significantly smaller, or severely restrict how Lesser Houses can lose honour. They are restricted enough in how they can gain it that they don't need more of a malus.

All other changes are inconsequential compared to actually being motivated to participate.

No, really, no. It would not be horrid if it was just taking us back to how things were before family honour, but it would leave us with a system where you are still farming newbies until you get to the highest perk level.



Before the comma ok, after the comma not so. If the house is going to change hands then it should be fully designed based off the org itself with the family moving in when they become the top family but with no other control over it.

-------------------

Also, I really feel the need to point out that this system of using family honour to purchase things was what we were originally asking for when family honour was put in place.

The house on prime feels like it should definitely be in there, I don't think that this should be within an org though as you could make it a special benefit that only one family per org can gain. But it would create a sink for honour to be used.

For gains. Looking back, the suggestions around honour were that it be something that you gained for actively participating in the game.
* The elected seats should possibly be reviewed, while it is likely to happen anyway I would rather avoid giving families a benefit for just voting for their family members in constantly(diminishing returns based on the number of elected seats held?).
* Submitting books and performances, if they pass through fine then the family should gain honour for it, if they win then they should gain more.
* Active event participation seems like another time to reward family members, though it could also result in complaints and event whoring the Mes'ard probably would have gained honour in the Hoaracle event
* Gaining honour lines should give some honour while repeating the same quest might only give a lesser amount.
* Epic quests for the city of the family seem like they should add a large amount of honour (if we go to a purchase based system and this is added then it should probably be added retroactively)


With competitions between families, if we track the honour gains over 5 ig years(2 months) you could compare and determine winners within the org transferring a property within the org to the family for the next five years(their actions create a "good" impression of the org through their connection to the family). Maybe throw in something where combat "style" families could declare war on each other and raid each others land?