To illustrate my point of divorcing caste from cityrank and marrying it to service.

Tier 3:
Scientists!
Rank 1- Lowly Intern
Rank 4- Professor
Rank 6- Ileein Head Researcher

Artists!
Rank 1- Apprentice
Rank 3- Understudy
Rank 6- Master Artist

Tier 2:
Merchants!
1- Lowly Peddler
3- Assistant to the Department of Plenty
6- (some bigger title here, too tired to think of one)

Thugs Warriors!
1- Patroller of the Lower Wards
3- Custodian of Justice
6- Enforcer of the Collective

Tier 1:
Servants!

I can't really come up with fancy titles here. A servant is a servant. But the consistency of their service, their skill in which they perform it, and their overall usefulness to the Collective shouldn't be looked down on.


Notice how everyone, regardless of Caste, starts as a virtual nobody? Inherently, the tiers will still be there. Scientists will still be scientists. Sure, a lowly Intern can try and order the top-tier fighter around, but by the time the top-tier fighter reaches their position in accordance with their service, they'll have garnered enough respect that the lowly Intern will quickly be smacked on the wrist. I hope this is making sense, I should have been in bed awhile ago. :|

You don't even have to haul around cumbersome titles or clans for this. You eventually just get sucked up into the social structure of the Collective as a whole - if person X says that they're a servant then you'll know that, hey, they're a servant. And after they do (whatever duty you ask of them, which they can politely decline with a variety of reasons to prevent tyrannical tomfoolery) you can gauge that they're actually a pretty good servant worthy of respect. If they say they're a Scientist and you don't see their name on any books in the local library, they're probably a fledgeling scientist. Or a really bad one.

Edit#4: Man I don't think I'm numbering these tiers correctly, unless Hallifax really is some upside-down pyramid.

That's not a bad idea, I'm just worried about people who don't necessarily fit into one of those tiers. It would make being a jack of all trades pretty difficult, wouldn't it?

Edit: What I mean is, say you start out thinking you'll just be a servant, but as life goes on, and things change, you think maybe you'd like to be an artist now. Would you start back at apprentice, or would you shift straight over, becoming an understudy, even though this is your first foray into the arts?

Nothing's stopping a servant from writing a book and getting a favour for it. They simply wish to remain in their own caste, content with the fact that where they stand now is the best way they can possibly serve the interests of the Collective. The only problem I could see with this is if someone just tried to drift back and forth between Castes due to an unclear character concept, but I don't know how realistically that would come up.

Edit to your edit: Depends. A servant could be living in their master's housing and, in their spare time, paint in their own quarters. They may realize that this is perhaps their true calling, and if their work is up to par, I don't see why they wouldn't be recognized for their talent. (That's what Artists/Scientists are about, right?) On the other hand, if they just don't know if being a servant is their calling or if they aren't satisfied with their given social tier, they can certainly try and rise up, albeit a bit slower. They'd probably start at a lower 'rank' in this case.

Edit2: The system has enough flexibility for situations where you need a fighter-leader to do their job and have authority over everyone else, too. Unless that Rank 6 Scientist is -really- shortsighted and wants to lead their effort in a village revolt to the ground, I don't think players would mind listening to orders rather than giving them for a change.

If there were a relatively easy way to keep track of people's caste, and a way to ensure no one was being forced into a caste they didn't want, I would totally go for Furien's idea.

Oh, and Tier 2 needs bureaucrats, can't forget them!

Mind you I'm not arguing against changes or saying that RP should trump everything, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. My reply to this is: should people like that actually play Hallifaxians? Again this makes me sound snobby and I apologise for that because it sort of singles out Hallifax as the only org which should have only RP-minded people, even from among the fighters.

The lack of this argument is why these threads tend to fill me with rage. Hallifax, like every single other org, favours you just for jumping up on elemental and sneezing at the enemy. Acquiring a favour for fighting stuff is easy. Acquiring a favour for arts and crafts, isn't.

Helping in a raid defense takes ten minutes or so, maybe more at rare instances, but it is still over quickly. It takes me at least an hour to work on a design until I am satisfied with it. Designing a cultural event can take weeks, a play can take months. These things are still given the same weight in favours as the earlier mentioned raid defense. In fact, they are even less likely to actually get a favour, unless it is a book submitted to the library. Just look at how long it took before Shulamit was favoured for all the designs she churns out.

We can divorce Caste rank and City rank. But all it will do is create a huge amount of fighters in the higher city ranks, and leave the artists and scientists to take the slow path up.

A point system or such? As you say, it's fairly easy to show up for a defence/raid, so it could have lower point systems, but a design of good standing/cultural event/book of good standing/etc. could be worth more, as they're valued higher in the city.

I acknowledge you're playing devil's advocate, and I'll admit that's pretty hard to answer beyond 'but there's more to it'. On the flip side, should Hallifax really stick with a system that inhibits the growth of those people that help dictate the balance of power?

I was speaking earlier in the context of 'write poems, write books' stereotype that is the Artist/Scientist tier. Like I said, there's more to it - the other ideas you proposed are all totally viable, though, and pretty much synonymous with what I've experienced in other orgs.

Example 1: Really fragile CommunemateA is having trouble with the Scorpion Caves quest and, being the thuggish Demi Serenwilder I am, I help him kill all the creatures needed for the quest. He goes off to influence for the second part, I stand, keep watch, grunt and look intimidating.

Example 2: ScientistA is trying to complete the Scorpion Caves quest to study the flows of power that manifest during the ritual to summon Grandmother Scorpion. He cannot risk his valuable life or sully his hands with the blood of creatures, and so calls upon a bodyguard to help him in his venture. Same deal, right? It's just more structured, more woven into the social fabric of the organization, and even easier to be recognized for and probably just as enjoyable. Win-win.

I don't think this last part is true, and I doubt it would ever become the threat you're making it out to be, just by virtue of Hallifax being roleplayed the way it is. For the former, though: if weights really are the problem, why not give multiple favours to save the hassle of righteous indignation?

For no reason I can discern this made me laugh. Thanks!

Except it already happened. That people are favoured much easier for combat than for artsy stuff is a fact. As it is, the only sure way to acquire favours for arts and science is to write a book, and writing a book that can pass critique takes a long time. Beyond that, only the winners in art/science contests gets favours. Plays take a long time to write, direct and get to perform. Fighters have it truly easy in the way of favours already.

As but a suggestion to the proposed problem of people advancing faster due to fighting than 'research' etc, why not employ a tiered point system.

So, say, defending is worth 5 points, writing a large book 25, writing a whimsy poem 5 points.

Then to get favours at cr1 they cost 20 points, favours at cr2 35 points, favours at cr3 60 points, etc etc etc.

You'd still be rewarding writing/research, while still allowing defending to be worth something (albeit less, as some feel that's appropriate).

Just a suggestion! (The numbers themselves are semi-random, obviously)

((NOTE: I'm going to ramble and just throw out some disconnected thoughts in this reply. I don't really have any cohesive ideas on how to fix things, but it's been an issue I've known needed attention for some time (as some people who may have actually talked to Phoebus, which more people should do by the way, can attest to). I've just been too busy with my real life to really sit down and try to repair everything in my fake life! ))




Yeah, I was actually never favoured for any of the designs I did in all the long while before I got Archmage. And I design a lot. I got to CR4 almost exclusively by helping in revolts (and one of the rare and fabled power contribution favours- which we actually see more of now.) If an artist or scientist tries to progress purely through art and science? It's going to take a really long time to get anywhere in city rank.

The idea of letting designated scientists be favoured only for science, or designated artists only be favoured for art, it gets messy and lopsided. And what do you do about bureaucrats? Merchants? What even constitutes a merchant favour or a bureaucrat favour?

I've wanted to pull out the good ol' Caste Article V (which is basically a "favour anyone for anything!" caste article) more than once to cityfavour someone regardless of their caste or the type of activity (fighting, art, etc.), but it says the full Board has to approve before that one can be used, exceptional circumstances, yada yada. Getting full Board approval is a pain in the ass, and the wording makes it seem like the person has to have done some really spectacular to get favoured. But recently, someone was favoured under V without my approval (I woulda said yes, but still) for something pretty insignificant. And the caste system didn't fall apart! The world didn't end!

So maybe instead of trying to come up with a huge overhaul of the system all at once, I think that it might actually work out if we just gradually start loosening up good ol' Caste Article V. It's always been there. We've always had the power; it's just worded in such a way that no one ever wants to touch it without a crazy good reason. Change the wording so it's more acceptable-sounding to favour someone under that Article. It'll give everyone some wiggle room, without having to make a dramatic change to the entire system!

I know that's not exactly the great and holy grail we're searching for, but I think it might help. That along with the caste shift of making upper caste ONLY CR6 instead of CR5 and CR6 would make the process seem a lot less unfair. Sure, people would still complain, but people are always going to complain, no matter what you give them.

EDIT: This got posted while I was rambling!:

I'm wary of points systems after dealing with the post-graduate studies system we have in the Aeromancers. It's just not an interesting way of doing things! It's boring, it doesn't engage anyone. Do this, get points. Rinse, repeat. Oh look, you get a favour, yay. Now you have to make more points before you go up again. Woo.

No one participates in it, and I don't want that to happen with the city too!

This. Eventru's idea also works to accomplish the same end, but what Nariah proposes seems far and above the best solution. Speaking as a designer, I would -love- to have warriors who actually asked around for semi-custom designs, and if I were somebody trying to write a paper/study on, say, undervault biology, having somebody who could bash a portion clear for me/clear a section of astral/recover samples from Dionamus/etc that actually wants to help you would be amazing.

So, I'd say go with something like what Eventru has for upper-caste favours, while implementing what Nariah has. Since Ev's is more bureaucratic (this is the new 'system') and Nariah's more PR-based (Hey fighters, here's how you can get CR6!), I can see the two working well together.

Uhm, I'd have to say a major reason it took awhile for me to get favoured is cause I don't....like speaking up, so despite the...uhm, lots of designs (I'll have to recheck, but I think at least 25 at this point, not counting ISCC, Zephyr, and Lunarrose.) Ok, counted, closer to 30-35 in Skyscribes, and more in other city cartels. Rambling...

But I am busy with the designing. I should be submitting these designs for favours. But then I say well, I can do that tommorrow...and go and design more things. Where was I going with this? I don't know anymore.

But thank you Kiradawea, I wasn't sure I was slow on the favours. I guess my point is I should be more...pushy? *confused* *wanders off*

So, uhm...more favours...

I like this solution because it's simple and it allows for a gradual shift.

I really don't think you should get CR6 just off of defending; I think you should really have to put some time in and become great at what you do, no matter what it is. In the case of defending/combat, I would be inclined to favour people for things like exemplary leadership during a defense, a great showing in a tough FFA, representing the city in some combat-related event... something that is still "combat-related" but not necessarily just run-of-the-mill defense. This way, people are rewarded, to a certain level, for helping out but are also encouraged to really dig in and become better, which... is kind of the point of the whole city.

Hallifax is about the best of the best, or, becoming great at what you do through intense study. Just like Eventru and others have said, you can't see "intense study" in a short poem any more than you can see "intense study" if you're just sitting in a defense hitting your web / aeon alias. Past a certain level... CR4 or CR5, just tighten the requirements and only favour people for being or doing extraordinarily well at something.

I have actually been fiddling with a proposal of such a system for Magnagora, including something like the Ninjakari tablet for the city to keep track of it.

You sir have been spying on me. I'm onto you!

That\\s what I was trying to say, but you said it with better examples.

Well, half my point was that you shouldn't need to be more pushy. I don't have access to design based tradeskills, so I am not entirely certain how they work, but if a Trademaster of a Hallifaxian cartel notices that one of the citizens have submitted a lot of designs, or designs of very high quality (as in, nothing like my fruit vials), they should favour them, or recommend them to someone who can favour.

And yeah you are slow on the favours. You should be CR 6 a long time ago with all those designs you churn out. You are a very good example of an artist. If you had applied that same energy to fighting in any other org, you would have been CR 6 already.

Oh, and to dispel the illusion that its easier to gain rank through defending than through writing a book... it's really not.

For comparison, I got about 2-3 favours for defending and got roughly 5 for writing one book. You get, at minimum, 2 favours per book that you write; if you consider that a book could, theoretically, be written in a single day... then it is just as easy to gain rank from writing as it is to gain rank from defending.

Given, in a single day you may not write a very good book, but, at the same time, there are no quality restrictions in defense, either. You can die in one hit, in a defense, and still earn a favour just like you can crank out a book in 5 hours and earn 2 favours. This is why the focus should be on quality rather than quantity past a certain point for all routes to CR6.

This is why I would support a point-based system, as recommended by Eventru, in regards to earning writing favors, but, also in regards to favours beyond CR4 or CR5 for combatants who show a strong understanding of their craft.