Kiradawea2010-10-11 22:46:40
No. You only get one favour for a book, with a second favour if you win prestige. I only got one favour for my work, even though it was sent out to be judged in the prestige contest.
Prav2010-10-11 22:47:46
QUOTE (Kiradawea @ Oct 11 2010, 06:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No. You only get one favour for a book, with a second favour if you win prestige. I only got one favour for my work, even though it was sent out to be judged in the prestige contest.
I've always seen two favours: One on publication by the Library and one on passing the review process.
Unknown2010-10-11 22:49:47
QUOTE (Prav @ Oct 11 2010, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, and to dispel the illusion that its easier to gain rank through defending than through writing a book... it's really not.
For comparison, I got about 2-3 favours for defending and got roughly 5 for writing one book. You get, at minimum, 2 favours per book that you write; if you consider that a book could, theoretically, be written in a single day... then it is just as easy to gain rank from writing as it is to gain rank from defending.
For comparison, I got about 2-3 favours for defending and got roughly 5 for writing one book. You get, at minimum, 2 favours per book that you write; if you consider that a book could, theoretically, be written in a single day... then it is just as easy to gain rank from writing as it is to gain rank from defending.
Writin's is hards
It is much easier to shoot webs at mans in a game than it is to actually sit down and write a quality piece of work. Especially for people like me, who are a little slow in the brains sometimes...oh, and who hate writing. GOD I HATE WRITING UGH IT LITERALLY MAKES ME WANT TO PUKE ALL OVER MYSELF. Don't tell anyone in Hallifax that, though.
Anyway, this is kind of beside the point.
Let's not get into an argument about a silly thing and get back to the issue!Everiine2010-10-11 22:53:35
Part of the issue for me is also the homogenization of the organizations across the board. The mechanics have not helped this, rather, they have furthered it. People expect that things will work the same way in each guild and in each org with only minor variations. Then along comes Hallifax, which works in a -radically- different way. Suddenly, we can't all have our cake and eat it too. We are used to developing personal RP. We are not used to walking into a place, taking their RP into account with ours, and turning it into an enjoyable spending of our time.
I fear that many of the suggestions being made will only make the caste system superfluous, turning Hallifax into just another org that works with a slightly different flavor.
I fear that many of the suggestions being made will only make the caste system superfluous, turning Hallifax into just another org that works with a slightly different flavor.
Furien2010-10-11 22:53:55
Implement point system (in a more tasteful way, I don't know if the Caste articles really want to talk about earning points) + the cityrank-divorcing idea.
I don't think CR5/6 (especially the latter) should be too hard, though, so as to be prohibitive. Village influencing doesn't require the best of the best, just the competent, and you eventually a reach a point where you're just hurting yourself over it.
Edit: Regardless of the changes, the caste system isn't going to be made superfluous unless the players actually care so little about it.
I don't think CR5/6 (especially the latter) should be too hard, though, so as to be prohibitive. Village influencing doesn't require the best of the best, just the competent, and you eventually a reach a point where you're just hurting yourself over it.
Edit: Regardless of the changes, the caste system isn't going to be made superfluous unless the players actually care so little about it.
Unknown2010-10-11 22:55:51
-nudges people back to her post sadly-
Didn't anyone think my idea was pretty alright besides Prav?
I am really interested in your feedback, people!
Didn't anyone think my idea was pretty alright besides Prav?
I am really interested in your feedback, people!Prav2010-10-11 22:57:45
QUOTE (Everiine @ Oct 11 2010, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then along comes Hallifax, which works in a -radically- different way. Suddenly, we can't all have our cake and eat it too. We are used to developing personal RP. We are not used to walking into a place, taking their RP into account with ours, and turning it into an enjoyable spending of our time.
I fear that many of the suggestions being made will only make the caste system superfluous, turning Hallifax into just another org that works with a slightly different flavor.
I fear that many of the suggestions being made will only make the caste system superfluous, turning Hallifax into just another org that works with a slightly different flavor.
The problem is that Hallifax simply cannot succeed or fill the role that it has defined for itself without making some compromise, due to the basic mechanics of the game.
If you want to RP the big, Collective, corporation themed sort of "dominate and spread" type role, you can do that. Unfortunately, in a MUD where you dominate and spread by gaining villages, culture, commodities, etc. you are required to have combatants and, if you don't reward those combatants, you're stuck just insisting that you are something that you aren't... you have your role defined, you just have no practical means of achieving it.
Furien2010-10-11 22:57:53
You aren't the only one. 
Your idea is good and easy to go with, though I figure the whole 'change how it (the caste system) works' thing really can be used for the better.
Your idea is good and easy to go with, though I figure the whole 'change how it (the caste system) works' thing really can be used for the better.Diamondais2010-10-11 22:58:03
QUOTE (Furien @ Oct 11 2010, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Implement point system (in a more tasteful way, I don't know if the Caste articles really want to talk about earning points) + the cityrank-divorcing idea.
I don't think CR5/6 (especially the latter) should be too hard, though, so as to be prohibitive. Village influencing doesn't require the best of the best, just the competent, and you eventually a reach a point where you're just hurting yourself over it.
Edit: Regardless of the changes, the caste system isn't going to be made superfluous unless the players actually care so little about it.
I don't think CR5/6 (especially the latter) should be too hard, though, so as to be prohibitive. Village influencing doesn't require the best of the best, just the competent, and you eventually a reach a point where you're just hurting yourself over it.
Edit: Regardless of the changes, the caste system isn't going to be made superfluous unless the players actually care so little about it.
Merit system? Same idea, really, better it is/harder to achieve, more it's worth. Can still keep lazy people low, or low for longer, and those willing to work and pump out high quality product/design/research/etc. can be moved along at a faster rate.
Lilia2010-10-11 23:12:44
QUOTE (Kiradawea @ Oct 11 2010, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The lack of this argument is why these threads tend to fill me with rage. Hallifax, like every single other org, favours you just for jumping up on elemental and sneezing at the enemy. Acquiring a favour for fighting stuff is easy. Acquiring a favour for arts and crafts, isn't.
Helping in a raid defense takes ten minutes or so, maybe more at rare instances, but it is still over quickly. It takes me at least an hour to work on a design until I am satisfied with it. Designing a cultural event can take weeks, a play can take months. These things are still given the same weight in favours as the earlier mentioned raid defense. In fact, they are even less likely to actually get a favour, unless it is a book submitted to the library. Just look at how long it took before Shulamit was favoured for all the designs she churns out.
We can divorce Caste rank and City rank. But all it will do is create a huge amount of fighters in the higher city ranks, and leave the artists and scientists to take the slow path up.
Helping in a raid defense takes ten minutes or so, maybe more at rare instances, but it is still over quickly. It takes me at least an hour to work on a design until I am satisfied with it. Designing a cultural event can take weeks, a play can take months. These things are still given the same weight in favours as the earlier mentioned raid defense. In fact, they are even less likely to actually get a favour, unless it is a book submitted to the library. Just look at how long it took before Shulamit was favoured for all the designs she churns out.
We can divorce Caste rank and City rank. But all it will do is create a huge amount of fighters in the higher city ranks, and leave the artists and scientists to take the slow path up.
QUOTE (Prav @ Oct 11 2010, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, and to dispel the illusion that its easier to gain rank through defending than through writing a book... it's really not.
For comparison, I got about 2-3 favours for defending and got roughly 5 for writing one book. You get, at minimum, 2 favours per book that you write; if you consider that a book could, theoretically, be written in a single day... then it is just as easy to gain rank from writing as it is to gain rank from defending.
Given, in a single day you may not write a very good book, but, at the same time, there are no quality restrictions in defense, either. You can die in one hit, in a defense, and still earn a favour just like you can crank out a book in 5 hours and earn 2 favours. This is why the focus should be on quality rather than quantity past a certain point for all routes to CR6.
This is why I would support a point-based system, as recommended by Eventru, in regards to earning writing favors, but, also in regards to favours beyond CR4 or CR5 for combatants who show a strong understanding of their craft.
For comparison, I got about 2-3 favours for defending and got roughly 5 for writing one book. You get, at minimum, 2 favours per book that you write; if you consider that a book could, theoretically, be written in a single day... then it is just as easy to gain rank from writing as it is to gain rank from defending.
Given, in a single day you may not write a very good book, but, at the same time, there are no quality restrictions in defense, either. You can die in one hit, in a defense, and still earn a favour just like you can crank out a book in 5 hours and earn 2 favours. This is why the focus should be on quality rather than quantity past a certain point for all routes to CR6.
This is why I would support a point-based system, as recommended by Eventru, in regards to earning writing favors, but, also in regards to favours beyond CR4 or CR5 for combatants who show a strong understanding of their craft.
In line with what they both say, I don't care what org you're in, you shouldn't get CR6 just be showing up to revolts/raids. I think that at a certain point, especially in Hallifax, the home of Collectivism, you would be considered to be simply 'doing your duty.' One of my first cityfavours was for participating in a raid on Vortex. Honestly, I didn't do anything, no one told me what to attack, so I ended up just standing there until Fillin killed me. As a CR2, that's fine, it showed initiative, a willingness to contribute, blah blah, but if that exact same situation happened now, I wouldn't expect a favour for it. As a CR4, I need to be doing more than just standing there. Same with revolts. Cityfavours are fine for low ranks if they're just watchers, but at a certain point, you need to be doing more. Shattering people, influencing key denizens, etc. Those are worthy of favours at a higher rank.
I really like the idea of have each caste have their own set of favourable activities. We would probably still want to have things that anyone could be favoured for up to a certain rank, but being able to get scientific/artistic favours for things other than books would be lovely.
Unknown2010-10-11 23:32:11
I really want to get people away from this points system love you're showing. Points systems have some serious problems to them, and I think implementing one is the wrong road to head down. It was definitely the wrong road in the Aeromancers, in my opinion. Just like now, it seemed like a simple and good idea at the time, but boy were we wrong. And I don't wanna see that happen again.
1) Who is going to keep track of the points?
People don't like to be responsible for informing others of their own achievements. Invariably there are going to be people who just expect someone to track their points for them. And that gets messy.
2) For that matter, how will they be kept track of?
A project? A CHELP? I really don't want that job. Hallifax has enough issues keeping CHELP TRADES up to date, let alone a constantly-changing scroll of points and ranks.
3) Who decides what things are worth how many points? And for people like bureaucrats and merchants, will you even be able to think of enough tasks to keep it in balance with the other types of things?
GHELP SPHERES, the Aeromancer points system program, is very obviously out-of-balance, when it comes to earning points in the different Spheres. For those who are unfamiliar with it (most of you), each Sphere is a type of focus (science, art, business, combat, etc.) and you can earn points for different activities under each Sphere. Some Spheres have way, WAY more variety and thus more opportunity to advance than others, not to mention some allow room for creativity, where others do not.
4) Where's the fun in this?
A list with points to get is just plain boring. There's no substance. There's nothing that really engages you. It's just...do this, tell us you did, congratulations you win. And if something is boring, to me, that's not a good solution, even if it gets you delicious cityfavours. Because that makes things a joyless grind, a repetitive means to an end, and this is a game, not an assignment for school or work. Things should be intriguing, fun, interesting. You can't let yourself lose sight of that, or you'll never fix anything.
1) Who is going to keep track of the points?
People don't like to be responsible for informing others of their own achievements. Invariably there are going to be people who just expect someone to track their points for them. And that gets messy.
2) For that matter, how will they be kept track of?
A project? A CHELP? I really don't want that job. Hallifax has enough issues keeping CHELP TRADES up to date, let alone a constantly-changing scroll of points and ranks.
3) Who decides what things are worth how many points? And for people like bureaucrats and merchants, will you even be able to think of enough tasks to keep it in balance with the other types of things?
GHELP SPHERES, the Aeromancer points system program, is very obviously out-of-balance, when it comes to earning points in the different Spheres. For those who are unfamiliar with it (most of you), each Sphere is a type of focus (science, art, business, combat, etc.) and you can earn points for different activities under each Sphere. Some Spheres have way, WAY more variety and thus more opportunity to advance than others, not to mention some allow room for creativity, where others do not.
4) Where's the fun in this?
A list with points to get is just plain boring. There's no substance. There's nothing that really engages you. It's just...do this, tell us you did, congratulations you win. And if something is boring, to me, that's not a good solution, even if it gets you delicious cityfavours. Because that makes things a joyless grind, a repetitive means to an end, and this is a game, not an assignment for school or work. Things should be intriguing, fun, interesting. You can't let yourself lose sight of that, or you'll never fix anything.
Saran2010-10-11 23:43:31
Sorry in advance.
Visibility I think is the issue here, especially if we want to tie rewards into certain castes.
Well two things, Warrior Caste members are pretty much those who are only proven themselves as such(regardless of guild btw).
And if the later points were found out the warrior in question might likely find themselves as an indentured servant permanently.
If I am reading this right, this would actually result in many low cr scholars/artists and high cr fighters simply because it is easier to get the favours through the fighter method.
In my proposal I was considering suggesting a block on favours if you are not considered part of an appropriate caste or higher, with the favours being received once you are eligible.
Also as above visibility is an issue and tracking in a project will very likely be painful.
We've been told that combat is not art or science. You can explain it as the practical application offered by such, expertise and ingenuity in combat proves worth as a Warrior. While something like project Aerial (an rp project that might end with a new ability in harmonics) would be a more likely way to get science favours for something combatant related though obviously very rare even if the ability does not end up in the skill set the rp of developing it should suffice.
This does mean restricting personal title rights which was brought up yesterday, however the primary issue with this post is how do you monitor and track this.
Well... no, do not think of the castes as directly linked to the guild. It is entirely possible that the majority of the warrior caste could be from the Institute and Aeromancers while the Scholarly and Artistic castes are filled with Sentinels. Grunts who just follow orders do have a place in the warrior caste, somewhere below our military strategists and the like.
We could have a barely active top tier combatant on our side and a very active but middle tier combatant, who do we put at cr6?
Barring them from giving cityfavours is actually not good because that would help the city.
mentioned above.
QUOTE (diamondais @ Oct 12 2010, 07:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You can just as easily play that those of scholarly and artisitic talent and showing are far more important to the city than those who take the warriors path in the city through RP means without attaching it to a mechanic.
Visibility I think is the issue here, especially if we want to tie rewards into certain castes.
QUOTE (Nariah @ Oct 12 2010, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No one's to say that Hallifax warriors have to be dumb meatshields, I actually don't think there is a place for your usual hack and slash guys in Hallifax, and that is not how I personally see them at all...
Well two things, Warrior Caste members are pretty much those who are only proven themselves as such(regardless of guild btw).
And if the later points were found out the warrior in question might likely find themselves as an indentured servant permanently.
QUOTE (Volroc @ Oct 12 2010, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why not make caste non-hierarchical? In other words, if you're in the scientist caste you are only rewarded for or given respect for creating a scientific work or project or what-have-you. If you're in the fighter caste you are only rewarded for, well, fighting....
If I am reading this right, this would actually result in many low cr scholars/artists and high cr fighters simply because it is easier to get the favours through the fighter method.
In my proposal I was considering suggesting a block on favours if you are not considered part of an appropriate caste or higher, with the favours being received once you are eligible.
Also as above visibility is an issue and tracking in a project will very likely be painful.
QUOTE (Calixa @ Oct 12 2010, 08:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Have fighters somehow work together with the scientists, like bringing in bodies to experiment on, be a test subject, ?...
We've been told that combat is not art or science. You can explain it as the practical application offered by such, expertise and ingenuity in combat proves worth as a Warrior. While something like project Aerial (an rp project that might end with a new ability in harmonics) would be a more likely way to get science favours for something combatant related though obviously very rare even if the ability does not end up in the skill set the rp of developing it should suffice.
QUOTE (Lendren @ Oct 12 2010, 08:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with diamondias that decoupling CR from the caste system is probably the best solution. Use titles for it, and grant other rewards for them: rights to boss people around, access to new rooms you build in the city specifically to be for higher ranks, discounted prices on city credits, etc.
This does mean restricting personal title rights which was brought up yesterday, however the primary issue with this post is how do you monitor and track this.
QUOTE (Lilia @ Oct 12 2010, 08:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think my issue with people complaining is, why do fighters need all three influencing skills. They're there to fight, not influence. They should be killing people so that the higher ranked people can get their job done...
Well... no, do not think of the castes as directly linked to the guild. It is entirely possible that the majority of the warrior caste could be from the Institute and Aeromancers while the Scholarly and Artistic castes are filled with Sentinels. Grunts who just follow orders do have a place in the warrior caste, somewhere below our military strategists and the like.
QUOTE
The only possible solution I can think of that would pacify those complaining, is providing a provisional CR6 to exceptional warriors. They would be barred from giving cityfavours, expect maybe for defense/offense related activities...
We could have a barely active top tier combatant on our side and a very active but middle tier combatant, who do we put at cr6?
Barring them from giving cityfavours is actually not good because that would help the city.
QUOTE (diamondais @ Oct 12 2010, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've said it before, but why not reward people for strategy, good use of skill, turning the use of the skills in order to show scientific awareness/research...
mentioned above.
Saran2010-10-11 23:45:08
QUOTE (Furien @ Oct 12 2010, 08:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The idea of clans is just as cumbersome.
I wonder, though, why cityrank is regarded as an example of the caste tiers? Is a member of the Institute or Aeromancers not a scientist or artist by default...
I wonder, though, why cityrank is regarded as an example of the caste tiers? Is a member of the Institute or Aeromancers not a scientist or artist by default...
No, while the current set up of the institute should pretty much garuntee scholars getting through I think there are tracks that allow for some pure combatants somewhere. It has also been clearly stated that while the Sentinels are officially part of the Ministry of Peace some of their leaders have been among the greatest Scholars in the city.
QUOTE
I guess what I'm trying to get at here is - do people not choose their castes?...
No, oh the issues cause with that make my head ache. I think Hallifax is currently better described as a meritocracy, you are assigned to a caste after demonstrating appropriate aptitude. Also how do you propose we track all of this, the options really are clans, projects and chelps (titles are for visibility but useless for tracking).
QUOTE (Lilia @ Oct 12 2010, 08:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But who decides what caste you're in? It shouldn't be impossible to be a fighter and an artist and a scientist...
As above, you prove that you are worthy to be in a caste. Highest Caste is your caste you simply deign to serve the city by performing the duties of a lower caste.
QUOTE (Anisu @ Oct 12 2010, 08:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There isn't really a 'fighter' caste in hallifax, it really just has 3 castes: lower, middle and higher.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. There are six castes in Hallifax Servant, Beaurocrat, Warrior, Merchant, Artist and Scholar they are grouped into lower, middle and higher for the cr coupling. Though from memory the warrior caste was added in afterwards.
QUOTE (Furien @ Oct 12 2010, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To illustrate my point of divorcing caste from cityrank and marrying it to service.
...
You don't even have to haul around cumbersome titles or clans for this...
...
You don't even have to haul around cumbersome titles or clans for this...
You've given us titles... sorry but how are we tracking all of this? As above, are we going to have massive lists in chelps and projects? If someone proves themselves as a scientist do they jump across to a rank that claims they have equal scientific service to the city as compared to their peers? If some rank 1 gets a rank 4(?) to title them as scientist does it make it so? There's no way to track it and it would likely happen mainly on alts, but how do we say "No, you are not a scientist".
QUOTE (Lilia @ Oct 12 2010, 08:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If there were a relatively easy way to keep track of people's caste, and a way to ensure no one was being forced into a caste they didn't want, I would totally go for Furien's idea.
Biggest issue with any change to the caste system.
QUOTE (Eventru @ Oct 12 2010, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As but a suggestion to the proposed problem of people advancing faster due to fighting than 'research' etc, why not employ a tiered point system.
I'm not sure, but it seems like we would be balancing the points for months.
Anisu2010-10-11 23:49:40
Alternatively we could just uncouple city influence skills from CR and just hand everyone their skills after playing x time in the city. Obviously this would be a change for every org.
Yes I am suggesting changing mechanics to serve Hallifax' rp. It had to be made, continue.
Yes I am suggesting changing mechanics to serve Hallifax' rp. It had to be made, continue.
Prav2010-10-12 00:03:13
QUOTE (Anisu @ Oct 11 2010, 07:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Alternatively we could just uncouple city influence skills from CR and just hand everyone their skills after playing x time in the city. Obviously this would be a change for every org.
Yes I am suggesting changing mechanics to serve Hallifax' rp. It had to be made, continue.
Yes I am suggesting changing mechanics to serve Hallifax' rp. It had to be made, continue.
I would like to lodge my vote for this solution.
Nariah2010-10-12 00:06:56
QUOTE (Phoebus @ Oct 12 2010, 01:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Point system complaints
Whilst there are many valid complaints to be had against such a system, unfortunately a vast majority of those you listed simply speak of poor execution and lack of an idea how to organise it for ease of use.
Unknown2010-10-12 00:14:22
QUOTE (Nariah @ Oct 11 2010, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Whilst there are many valid complaints to be had against such a system, unfortunately a vast majority of those you listed simply speak of poor execution and lack of an idea how to organise it for ease of use.
They're still real problems in the system, even if they're not based in the "on paper" version of the system. Problems no matter their source are still problems!
Nariah2010-10-12 00:16:13
QUOTE (Phoebus @ Oct 12 2010, 02:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They're still real problems in the system, even if they're not based in the "on paper" version of the system. Problems no matter their source are still problems!
There are problems to every solution, I'm just saying the ones you listed are not exactly an issue.
Unknown2010-10-12 00:19:53
QUOTE (Nariah @ Oct 11 2010, 08:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are problems to every solution, I'm just saying the ones you listed are not exactly an issue.
I'm not very good at conveying my thoughts. I got bored and stopped listing. Believe me, there are more.
I hate point systems.
Jayden2010-10-12 00:32:39
