Ehehe. I had a sneaking suspicion that things like that were possible. Glad to learn they are. Now to sweet talk Elostian.

Here we go:

One word: Pimpness

I am really disappointed to see this subject once more descend into a troll thread with most people simply criticising for the purpose of criticising. I was about to close this thread but thought the better of it. Know that if you want this discussion to go on I will expect it to be less inflamatory and degrading with the point of just demoralising all parties that read it. While some have been very constructive, the last two pages have been little but quibs. I expect this to stop or this subject will obviously have run its course and will be closed.

Agree.

that is awesome. With some adjustements (like a GA/minister being able to determine who can add points using the permissions system) this could be something that can help a lot of official organisations.

That is of course if the Ninjakari and Fain want to share the wealth

I'm kind of with Phoebus with regards to the point system. It seems to be an overly complicated solution to the problem. Tedious beaurocracy aside, I've found that point systems can wind up being rather restrictive and limiting rp-wise for both those seeking advancement and those giving awards.

To expand on my previous idea a bit (can be found here) - Have those that have achieved CR 6 (and consequently received recognition for their aptitude in their Caste) be in charge of leading their Caste and handing out their Caste favours. They're the leaders of their community, after all. They are responsible for the quality of their favours which reflect upon their Caste and can also try to recruit lower CR people into their own Caste as they progress (exception being the Servant Caste, since everyone that's CR 1 and CR2 would be considered a Servant). I don't think the consequences would be terrible for an org to trust their most respected and highest ranking members to be responsible and appropriate in handing out CF's.

EDIT: And to clarify my previous idea detailed in the link above, advancement from CR5 to CR6 would require choosing a specific Caste and then working to attain recognition in it. Perhaps this would be the only part of the system that would need to be defined more explicitly.

You can always add a note at the bottom that tasks not listed could be assigned point value based on peer/leadership evaluation.

I gotta say points systems are just not very fun, and I am even the kind of person that likes keeping charts and records and stuff. I worked through points systems in the Aeromancers and Tahtetso, and it's just kind of bland all around, despite their best efforts to make them interesting (I don't mean any offense at all to the people who developed them. I know it's hard and tedious work, and I agree that it seems practical and reasonable on paper). Plus, you start to feel pushy trying to get your points logged in this or that project, then making sure you get the appropriate favors, and so on. I'd just like to throw my hat in with the people shying away from points.

Like I have mentioned before, it is my belief that failed attempts cannot be used as evidence against such systems. I'm not talking about Aeromancers either, I don't know their system at all, but from 10 years of mudding experience I can say with certainty that it all depends on the execution of the idea - the amount of thought put into it, solid RP implementation, the attention to detail, foresight of potential loopholes and flaws, etc.

Additionally, we're not talking about a guild advancement system here, which has to be involving, inspiring, deeply RP rooted, and preferably thought-provoking. So the two really cannot be compared. City favours have never in the history of Lusternia involved advancement and development that Guilds strive for with their systems, and everyone seems to be overlooking this most important issue. A merit system for a city simply ensures that things that are below worth of a whole favour still are counted towards a favour. And lastly, they let you easily keep track of these things and reward a CR3 for defending as much as you would a CR1 - for a CR3 it will just take more time to raise in rank then.

For example, it's typically very easy to raise in rank as a combatant in your typical org which makes noncoms very annoyed and feeling underappreciated. They'll waste away at a book for a week and get one favour whilst some guy goes raid X with a group and gets it for 10 minutes work, if there even is much work involved. And so, what everyone in favour of a points system is excited about is -equal- raise in rank for various activities.

Signed,
Devil's Advocate

As usual, speaking from limited experience is surefire way to embarrass myself.

Idea: Declare city rank to be "bureaucratic rank" and then allow members of the Bureaucratic Caste to be promoted to CR6. Artists and Scientists are still higher ranked in the caste system, but they could potentially have a lower "bureaucratic rank" because they are not bureaucrats and do not need to involve themselves in mundane business. Servants are low CR, as they are expected to not have much say in the writing of bureaucratic articles and regulations. Artists and Scientists can be whatever rank, but probably a reasonably high one simply because their input is just as important as a guiding influence as a bureaucrat's is in implementation.

Ah well, some of it has been constructive!


You and Fain could come to Hallifax. Fain could teach Elostian what ruling with an Iron Fist really means and Elostian could help Fain develop his sense of humor (the kind where mortals don't burst into flames while He laughs)!


What do you all think about turning one of the pre-existing city mobs in the Spire of Lawgivers into something like this, but instead of keeping track of a point system, you submit an application to enter the highest castes once you reach CR4 (or 5)? Here's the rough idea of what I am thinking:

Warrior Rika (CR4) has hit the cap and can't earn any more favors from combat, but would like to advance further.
Warrior Rika goes to the Spire and talks to Hilelsa Clarramore about putting in an application for approval. Hilelsa gives Rika a crystal tablet that can use the following commands:

TABLET STATEMENT : This allows Rika to give a personal statement on why she believes she is eligible for the upper caste.

Rika can also give the tablet to others to get a personal endorsement. This command can be used by others to give their "approval" for Rika.

TABLET COMMENT

So if Rika has also been a prolific designer in addition to her warrior skillz, acted in a play, written a book about military strategy, and made a career out of teaching combat, she could receive endorsements for relevant people.

Her cartel TM or the Minister of Culture could TABLET COMMENT AIRFORGERS (or whatever the forging cartel is) Rika has submitted ten high quality designs for the city's cartel which have been accepted and are currently used by our citizens.

The Librarian could TABLET COMMENT LIBRARIAN Rika has submitted a scholarly book about military strategy that was 1,000 words in length and won prestige.

Etc.

If Rika can't find all of the people she needs, then she can just reference that in her personal statement. If she has given her application tablet to someone who is taking too long getting back to her, she can request a tablet from Hilelsa again and it will just return her original tablet to her. Tablets could have a decay time of 10 months and only one tablet can be requested/submitted every one or two IG years. Once submitted, any Board member could ask Hilelsa to review pending applications and confirm or deny them. It would take two confirmations to get approved for being eligible for the highest caste, and once approved any favorable action (combat, art, villages, domoths, whatever) could get you a favour. Applicants can talk to Hilelsa at any time to see their application status (Hilelsa says, "Your application is still pending and requires approval from one more Board member."/"Your application has been rejected. You may submit another request on 7 Estar, 590."/"You have not submitted an application. Please let me know if you would like to begin the process."/"Your application has been approved!"

What do people think?

It's not bad - it mixes personal initiative with administrative oversight and commentary - but I still think the caste system can be maintained as a largely social thing that exists outside the cityrank mechanic. There's other mechanical anchors available that have been brainstormed here if they're really needed. Doing anything else just doesn't feel it's going far enough to solve the problem of actively shooting your own influencers in the foot. Despite this, some people still want to take the 'You're playing in Hallifax, tough!' route as if we aren't all along for the ride for our differing reasons.

I still think my own idea (about making city rank reflect seniority within your caste) provides an excellent compromise with relatively minimal upkeep, but that's just me! It might seem a little odd that I chose to play in Hallifax when, OOC, I do awfully with things that require regular upkeep; my play style is far more spontaneous and free-flowing than that. Somehow all of my characters are authoritarians, though.

^Still totally advocating this. Original social structure remains in place, while everyone gets their due of appreciation. Win-win.

Erm...


Rika is trapped at rank 4/5 because she is a Warrior, to get to rank she needs to prove herself as Scholar/Artist? This is the current system but with a mobcoded application process that could just as easily be handled by players and if people have the point of view that they should not have to write books, etc then how is this change going to have an effect?

Oh, I wasn't advocating this system as a way to solve the caste issue since it doesn't address it almost in any shape or form. More as a cool bureaucratic flavour thing for Hallifax, and something that makes sure all sort of work is rewarded evenly (an issue all orgs have). What this obviously still needs is the implementation of some other way to keep track of castes than CR (for example the mentioned clan) + cool/non-cool privs for each caste.

If we go the mob/object route wouldn't it simply be easier to have something like...

The Central Caste Registry

Touch - displays available commands to the user

Citizens -

say Display : announces the caste of the named

Ministers/Board -

say Reassign to : reassigns the citizen to whatever caste specified


maybe even some ability for it to receive tells from "authorised units"


edit: Being greedy it would be nice to be able to log "points" for each caste as well to let us see if someone should be offered placement in a higher caste.

i.e
I notice that Shulamit has been making a few designs here and there, checking her records I see that she's acquired over 9000 artistic caste points but is still a servant this could be followed by an offer to join the artistic caste.

Example of privileges ripped from my decorum proposal for Magnagora:

Infringement of any of the decorum laws (proper attire, proper address of superiors, disrespect, whatever) would be punished as follows depending on social standing:

Where:

Lower Echelons = Peasants, Goodmen and Goodwomen, Noblemen and Noblewomen
Upper Echelons = Lords and Ladies, Barons and Baronesses
Aristocracy = Earls and Earlesses, Chancellors, and Champions

First Infringement:
===================

Lower Echelons : Corporeal Punishment OR Public Reprimand
Upper Echelons : Private Verbal Reprimand
Aristocracy : Pardoned

Second Infringement:
====================

Lower Echelons : 2,500 coins Fine AND Corporeal Punishment
Upper Echelons : 1,000 coins Fine AND Public Reprimand
Aristocracy : Private Verbal Reprimand

Third Infringement:
===================

Lower Echelons : City Disfavour AND 4,000 coins Fine AND Corporeal Punishment
Upper Echelons : City Disfavour AND 3,000 coins Fine
Aristocracy : Public Reprimand AND 10,000 coins Fine

Etc. I have tiers up till fifth infringement. Administering punishments would depend on rank too:

Application:
------------
Infractions committed by those considered to be within the lower echelons of Magnagoran
Hierarchy can be handled, where possible, by the upper echelons of the Engine. Likewise,
those committed by the upper echelons can be handled by the aristocracy. Punishments of
aristocracy can only be administered by members of the Iron Council.

For the purpose of administering punishments, members of the Iron Conclave - Ministers of
the Engine - are considered to be ranked within the upper echelons, whilst themselves
staying subject to punishments befitting their station.

Punishments are administered based on current rank, not taking into account whether or
not said rank is a result of previous punishments. Likewise, if the rank has been since
regained, the punishment appropriate to that rank applies.

NOTE: Having at least one infringement to your name in the records prevents from being
eligible to issue a punishment. Contact a peer to handle the matter.

Obviously this is for punishments and what people can get away with based on caste. There's much cooler things to add!