Rather than reduces weaknesses, I think their effects might need to be reduced to compensate for the other reductions to effectiveness (I"m thinking DMP and bal/eq reduction buffs).

@Kayte: Aslaran have level 2, not level 3.



What I would LOVE TO SEE:
Evolution paths for all races. It would be a lot of work, granted, but I think by designing evolution paths for all races, it'd be something very unique to Lusternia (I might be wrong) and it could be used to keep the differences while reducing the over-all negatives of a class.

I agree with Casilu that differences in the races are good. I think that perhaps rather than adjust racial stats (some still need it, though), the better thing to do would be to keep the majority of the stats as they are now and introduce the paths. Thus a Tae'dae mage might be smarter than the other Tae'dae, but the penalty would still not be ideal.

I don't think races need to have the best stats for a class to be used. I think better stats through evolution would go a long way while still preserving racial uniqueness.


EDIT: @ Furien. A lot of people kill with damage. Magnagora and Glom both use it to get kills.

Pretty sure it already is level two. Help Aslaran and the website both say it. And I'll take a stat increase or other buff ('less hasty' please), but I accept where Aslaran are if it means I can avoid a nerf.

Who kills with damage? Any organization that fights kills with damage. You use all the tools in your arsenal, and damage is (generally) one of the most sure-fire ways to go. Further, they're already discussing reducing the penalties of those racial weaknesses you're going on about... at which point reducing the positive resistances for Kepherans is absolutely essential.

Also, the main thing to reducing wounds is not stancing. Warriors work around stance/parry, it's part of the job. The main thing that reduces it is armour; good splendours reduce it significantly, and guess what? Kepherans can wear them. So, it's not a setback that they can't wear armour; they can wear the best protection available to every class except warriors. That means that for every class except warriors, it is not a setback at all.


If you want to tackle Faelings, sure. Be aware that I can just as easily tackle Elfen, though; if you take a hard look at Faelings you have to take a hard look at Elfen as they are, on the whole, pretty close. Also, don't forget that those H/M/E buffs give you a percent bonus to your base; so the more you have to start, the more you get. The less you have to start... well, you get the picture, I'm sure.

As I said, I feel that currently Faeling / Elfen / Illithoid / Kephera are the main contenders with Human these days, I just feel that Kephera is (especially if their weaknesses are reduced further) rather more ahead.

Edit: Also, keep in mind that I have 12 charisma base. So, as the Warrior-type who can actually get the highest health values (utilizing surge), I give up a fair bit of that charisma you are so upset about. Other Faelings have to live with their low constitution, and while they can work to buff it with those HME blessings, it's the same amount of work for less reward as they are percentage-based.

elfen and faelings are too good.


Edit: not calling for a nerf! Just want some merian loveeeeee.

Warriors rarely will be landing the damage kills, though. Ask Shuyin. They tend to be the pinleg affliction machines. Most damagekills are non-physical in nature, and in my experience damage kills are rarely the way to go anymore since everyone can manage to buff up. I see more toadcurses, deathsongs and chasms and other instakills. I also disagree on the stancing thing; it seems that regardless of how high my stats are I can be one or two-hit pinlegged just like anyone else with lunge.

With regards to elfen; sure, I get the picture, but elfen don't have the sip bonus. I know that was nerfed in the past, though, just as resistances were, both of which are significant. If Kephera are really so hot to stand up to a Human, why aren't we seeing more of them?

Edit to your edit: Well, okay, that's one of five classes, though - and consider that your Dex gives you pretty good precision when it comes to landing the type of wounds you want. (This is my understanding of how it works, at least, which is why low-DEX warrior races don't fly that well.) Everyone else is still an influencing machine that can take most npcs out in all of four hits.

Don't knock down the mountians, just fill in the holes?

My 280ish kills disagree with you (and I don't even fight much!). Sojiro also has quite a few more kills than that. Sure, we use a lot of abilities. It's often a race to see which one wins. That's part of the fun of the whole thing!

That's even with us intentionally not using damage weapons because we intend to be more of a hindering role. We're most definitely not the only warriors in the game, though, and different warriors (especially different specs) go for different things. All damage does add up, and even if we aren't the ones with the heavy burst damage dropping the target at the end we are consistently adding damage to the target throughout (which the other classes are less likely to be doing, often, as they use their afflictions and other skills).

I will agree that lunge can be very powerful when combined with decent strength (18+), max precision weapons, and +wounding runes. It adds 60% wounding, and when the wounding rate is already very high... yeah. Consider where you'd be at without the robes. And then those robes do keep working at keeping that wounding down when the warrior runs out of power.

To the last point; I don't agree that simply because a race isn't being played by everyone that it isn't powerful. Serenwilde (largest organization, generally) has another very good race (Elfen). Elfen are also more tied to the organization. As to Celest... frankly, I'd expect to see more Kepherans there. Maybe it's just a fear of Ceren. Who knows?

Warriors usually don't land the killing blow because it's better for them to be doing the pinleg. I don't know what experience you're coming from, but any group fight that I've been in revolves around damage. The instants hit when someone trueheals or would divine fire (back when you could do that), or when they last longer than the timed-kill. Also, it's very easy for midbies to use timed instants in the middle of a group fight. It's a good tactic. They won't contribute much in the way of -damage-, but nevertheless.

Also, I think part of the issue is that male Kepherans aren't as good as female, so that cuts down the numbers a bit. As an addendum to my previous post.

You're grabbing kills more because you attack faster and more often. And if you're consistently adding your damage and afflictions throughout, what's the problem? I couldn't manage to be a tanky beast, even as an MD Kephera. Everyone will crumple before a zerg.

For the power thing, we can argue that by the time you've got them pinned and your group is competent, they're dead anyways, right? Save for a somersault. Are we going to balance this on 1v1 or in a group context? Or is this all semantics? I still don't think it's as significant as you say it is, given all the offered setbacks.

For the last one; yes, our Serenguard all like playing furries for some reason. Iasmos excluded, I think.

Let's stop the argument about how people kill with damage or people don't kill with damage. PEOPLE KILL WITH DAMAGE, even in one on one situations. End of story. If you don't believe damage is not a viable tactic, then go fight against Magnagora or Glomdoring. It's only when the damage kill is no longer the most efficient when you see timed instants (ie, trueheal or tripleflash). Ever notice the zap kills? I had one on Shuyin during the last domoth against Glomdoring.

Not sure if it has been said (or really if it is directly relative to the matter) but I would like to see more 'racial' quests. that once done give some buff to that race while hurting another (so say a lucidian-dracnari that would help oneself and hurt the other).

But I also would like to see some sort of evolution pathways.

Not sure about this, but it would be cool if being a certain race helped (or hindered) certain existing/future quests. Like saying something in a certain language gets more information, or is only responded to when that language is used (would help book binders too!). Or for the races without racial languages, being that race helps with influencing that is quest specific or something else small.

I assume there is nothing already like this.

Racial quests would probably end up being banned through politics if they affected players.

For instance, a racially neutral org (Celest for dracnari and luciden, tmk) might ban such quests because they would hurt their own citizens.

Glomdoring and Celest might pressure Hallifax not to hurt dracnari to protect their own citizens, just like Magnagora and Serenwilde might do the same to Gaudiguch to protect their lucidian citizens.

Even then, they boil down to org versus org quests, but with the extra politics.

The faster topics first.....

• If weaknesses are being reduced, merian wont need the buff. Merian Lord> 16 str, 14 dex, 15 con Thems the big warrior stats. Its possible to ask for +con and take a bigger slap to dex though for the spellcasters and bard if you want.
  
• Kephera do have a ton of tanky. Although I believe Xenthos mainly experiences Kephera Shofangi, which means not only do they have splendours available with racial resistance they also have harmonies nearly 20% max health regen. The regen is at crazily high levels but is not the fault of the race itself. Still, the -1 to its advantages is still in order if the weaknesses are taking a bite.
  
• Dracnari do have huge weaknesses and almost nothing to speak of in the way of advantages, most of them are very situational. Fire weakness may be taking a bite so lets just look at reducing the sip penalty.
  
• Trill is a very nice race compared to some others I have seen only a lvl 1 weakness. They serve various guilds rather well, I have been one even as a Cacophony and a Harbinger and they werent bad Geomancers.
  
• Faeling are being underrated here. Narsrim was not specced and could pass 6000 health as a faeling, he also survived rather well against full groups attacking him thanks to his sipping bonus. Faeling dont necessarily need a nerf so much as seem deserving of having a weakness.
  
• More con for the furrikin please? Even just +1?
  
• Aslaran will be fine with fire weakness taking a bite

Bigger post coming soon

Trill are good, I think. They're slightly squishy, and if the administration is in a giving mood a wee bit of con buff might be nice, but it's not that big a deal. The only thing I think really needs a good look is the seduction bonus, which simultaneously makes some sense and feels a little... off. See also Lendren's comment on the matter.

It's difficult to gauge by revolts, but I think that cityrank plays a far bigger part than charisma for the influencing, and having competent people and good organization is the biggest thing for winning villages. Merians/Humans have decidedly average charisma, and Celest does consistently well in revolts. As for debating, while the people who give me the most trouble happen to not be 'pretty' races, cities do get chanters, which help a great deal. I think I'd call it different but equal enough. :shrug:


Unspecced trill could probably use one more point of con, yes. I wouldn't really go so far as to say that trill can't bash as is, though.
I don't agree with giving illithoid more cha, unless you're going to take the points from con and intellect, which defeats the purpose of choosing this race really. Illdrain compensates for having to take hits in debates.


As a demi with a TF and a life rune and a major health blessing, I can also break 6k as a faeling. I don't think either case is really representative of the race as a whole. Demi shadowsinger has a base of around 4300hp. I'm not sure if we're factoring artifacts and blessings in for every race in the balance... if we do, maybe everyone will be getting some additional weaknesses!

Just reduce the resistances of all races as much as the weaknesses have been.

Also I don't really think Illithoid deserve any more buffs, if anything, I think the need toning down.

This is possibly the most important principal to ever grace the topic of game balance. Nerfing things, be that penalties or bonuses is almost -always- the first instinct of someone trying to achieve "balance". It's also one of the worst things possible. It doesn't accomplish anything but making races less unique, less interesting.

By retaining outliers, but pushing different races toward outliers in -different- directions, you create not only diversity, but viability.

Why not add a racial affinity for Dracnari that enhances the damage they deal with fire?

Unique racial abilities are great if they actually -mean- something. What if Bearhug entangled and caused snappedribs?

However you also face the issue of low CON races and extreme sip penalties, and the necessity of bashing to earn IG gold and hence buy credits in-game. Telekinesis allows high ego races to hunt as mages, giving them a niche already. Low con races as a whole need something to actually counteract this, and it -must- be applicable. A resistance that doesn't help against any of the 'cash' mobs doesn't help any.

Racial armor affinities might be a way to work around this, by granting synergy with unique types of armor (and coincidentally making more of forging useful, as well as vests, etc.)


This same issue also plays out with CHA, as influence is not only essential in revolts, one of the largest aspects of the game. I'm not saying that Orclach should be able to run around influencing everything. Solid races are niche races, but must fill mechanical niches. The ability to fight extremely well in a revolt shouldn't
end up paired with extreme influence ability, but if a race -can't- fight at top notch in a specialty, it should own at influence or debate.

Debate bonuses would really work well. Lucidians should have the mechanics to demonstrate their analytical minds. Passion is a Dracnari's stock and trade. Etc.

On the subject of influence still, given that it's the single overwhelmingly superior way to gain XP before the mid to high 80s, every race needs to be able to influence -something- well. Having races that sucked at charity, but excelled with weakening would fulfill that. However for it to mean anything, the bonuses to influencing actually need to mean something (I'm looking straight at you, Illithoid). Low CHA races need at least -one- type of influence specialty, and that influence specialty needs to be capable of overwhelming their CHA penalty. Even a race with 7 CHA should be able to keep pace with a 17-18 CHA faeling if they're influencing something that they get a level 3 bonus against. For this to mean anything, that bonus needs to apply not only to the damage dealt per influence and lower ego loss per influence, but also equilibrium regain time after using that type of influence.

No race but humans the classical 'baseline' race should thrive in every guild, or even more than one archetype. This may sound like a plea to nerf certain races (people have mentioned faeling), but in truth it's a plea to bring other races -past- these races that are 'solid' broad spectrum, in their own unique niche. Every race should have at least one guild where they are Uber, above and beyond the all-purpose powerful races.

Races designed to 'beat' one specific guild aren't that beneficial, again, because of the don't tear down the mountains, fill in the holes principal.

Please don't make everything already interesting flat and boring. Make everything flat and boring more interesting.

Base merian could see the following changes:

• 14 charisma (+1)
• Level 2 equilibrium bonus (+1)
• Level 1 fire penalty (-1)
• Level 1 electric penalty (-1)
• Either a level 1/2 elixir bonus or level 1 balance bonus

* More for flavor than anything else, perhaps allow merian and mugwumps the ability to waterwalk underwater (IE. move without incurring the lag between rooms) since the dive bonuses are really obtained easily through common skillsets.



Compared to a fully evolved human warrior:


You'll see here that while the physical stats appear to be similar, merian lords are much more restricted in what they can do. The low charisma makes them poor influencers and the elemental penalties to commonly-available damage types makes playing a merian inviable in both combat and bashing for other than the lower levels (around level 80) when humans have not yet fully evolved their stats compared to a similarly-equipped human. The level 2 regen to health and mana in watery environments tends to be only useful if in an aquamancer meld as fighting in naturally watery environments tends to be rather rare so it tends to be an infrequent bonus at best, also considering that as sacraments knights, health and mana regen tend to be pretty easy to max out already without the help of this bonus.

As far as imperial merians go:



Before the changes to the damage equation which greatly reduced the effectiveness of intelligence, imperial merian were able to justify their low health and general tankiness by the high damage output but now that the lion's share of damage is gained once a character reaches 12 intelligence (with diminishing returns thereafter), it's no wonder that you rarely, if ever, see anyone play an imperial merian for anything except roleplay novelty as for all intents and purposes an unspecced faeling is superior in all ways due to the sip bonus for extra tankiness, very comparable damage due to the aforementioned stat-flattening for damage, and reduction in equilibrium bonus from 10% to 5% in the last racial revamp. A bump back up to a level 2 equilibrium bonus (10%) is justified since by far and large the majority of the burst damage imperial merians were able to deal before came from how the damage equation worked with high intelligence and the current difference in damage now means that high intelligence is one of the lesser-sought benefits in a race.