I think a good thing to remember is that good and evil are subjective, in the end. What one person is going to interpret as evil, another is going to see as neutral, etc. I can definitely see how Hallifax could be interpreted as Lawful Good (not my personal favorite interpretation), but also it can clearly be seen as Lawful Evil, or Lawful Neutral. I think the only thing we're all ever going to agree on is that the "Lawful" is there.

Go moral objectivism!

And this seemed oddly fitting to the discussion

An interesting topic, which I'll try to elaborate on from my own perspective.

Despite the sometimes elitist and oppressive atmosphere, of all the cities I think Hallifax has the most social freedoms. Unlike Celest or Magnagora where bureaucrats are given the highest degree of respect, the Mayor is generally treated with a pleasant minimum. He can be criticized more openly for his job without fear of dire consequences, although doing so in a public forum is still considered tasteless. Point a dry or sarcastic remark towards the Prince or Warlord? You've lost your head, in more ways than one.

In that regard, I daresay Hallifax is the most anti-authoritarian org of Lusternia. The castes are also very similar to modern civilization. Singers, actors, designers, and innovative minds are idolized by the masses as celebrities. It's more likely that you'd be able to have a casual conversation with the Mayor about golf, opposed to the former.

The Shevats are trying to get rid of that elitist atmosphere, despite being part of that group. We try to be urbane and congenial with our peers regardless of caste, and avoid shady types or barbarians entirely. Arrogance is for the insecure. Those who are well-bred know they are, and shouldn't have a reason to shove it in everyone's face.

Hallifax wants to advance science and whatnot, but we also wants to preserve our utopia. This includes protecting the lower castes. Without the lower castes, Hallifax would crumble in a second. The higher castes know that all too well. While its made out to be propaganda, there is a grain of truth to it all.

Citizens are certainly welcome to make a name for themselves in Hallifax, but I don't think that's a requirement to be "important". This is true in an RP sense and for game mechanics as well.

so yeah if you actually look at the city, the npcs, etc you will quickly learn Cririk was lying/writing propaganda.

but as Elo said, towards other player the entire authoritarian has been toned down for ooc considerations. And from reading this topic I am starting to think it was toned down to much that it takes away the atmosphere of what Hallifax truelly is. And if you look around the various location and talk to the various npcs you will quickly learn to classify hallifax as a lawful evil (since we all like to spread these meaningless alignment buzzwords)

I think it's just finding the balance. If everyone were hard-edged lucidians it would be one extreme. If everyone were whimsical trill it would be another.

Hallifax isn't either or, I think. It's a mixture of both in my eyes.

We're urbane and congenial because we're so much better than everyone else that it would make us look bad to act like it. :-P

The thing I like most about Hallifax (and I liked it about Glomdoring, too) was that there wasn't a strict adherence to good and evil, but more of a "Do what needs to be done." Sort of thing. While the oppressiveness is toned down toward the playerbase, it is definitely part of the city if you actually look at npcs and the city design itself. No one wants to be treated like crap when they play a game, and I definitely would not be able to play a character where I had to make people feel insignificant all the time. The whole personal of Halli is channeling that oppressive system into a worldview. So, the city was designed to facilitate an environment where we can still RP our elitism without making the game too rough for anyone else. No self respecting Upper-Caster is going to ferry their own art materials around so thank Estarra we've got those servants to carry them to the galleries and make sure things keep running smoothly in the city!

I guess the Institute has it a little easier in getting the NPC perspective of the city since we have the opportunity to access the Collective via the epic quest plus we have the Temporal Conclave's tidbits of conversations from different timestreams. The Conclave has a little soliloquy about Celest attacking Halli due to them finding out about how morally abhorrent the Collective actually is, a snippet about how many indentured servants Arthart would need to build the observatory when taking into account the projected death rate, and some research notes about how the continuum polyhedra have a more sinister origin. A lot of it is based on doing things just because that's what provides Hallifax with the most gain or benefit. I think that's what makes it cool: the cultured and urbane desire for making Hallifax a better place (and the rest of the Basin if they are open to it!) but the disregard for traditional moral conventions. The only way to be evil (from the Hallifax perspective) is to stand in the way or progress.

This is polynomial decay, not exponential decay. Exponential decay would be RQ = 1 / (2 ^ C) or RQ = 2 ^ (-C). Scientists are supposed to be better at this math stuff. Tsk, tsk.

/nitpicking

No. I meddled with the timeline far upstream when this 'math stuff' was being named. You'll find it's the other way around now.

Aeonics: better than False Memory when you screw up.

Know what I find odd? The idea that no one likes playing in an oppressive city. Old Magnagora, and I'm specific in Magnagora is no longer the evil hellhole it was, was constantly cited as one of the best places to play in terms of RP. Know why it was popular? We piled weights on you and expected you to swim upstream. It had an oppressive quality but it was liked, those who could make it past the tough spots had a lot of opportunities. You can have an oppressive society and be highly popular. However, Hallifax seems to have gone down a more passive route. I don't see them suddenly becoming the communist russia they have the chance of being.

Magnagora is also an org that is often cited as an example of being too oppressive. It really isn't the way to go. And frankly, as this thread demonstrates, Hallifax has enough pointless lolevil as it is.

That all depends on your perception of "pointless lolevil," which I personally would call an unnecessarily weighted phrase that shouldn't be used in a serious discussion of any kind. Call parts of Hallifax's atmosphere useless if you'd like, but be prepared to back it up with evidence or at least your reasons for believing so.

Aicuthi forgot a city.

The entire collective is an excersize in lolevil. It serves no point but to toss blackpaint on a society that's already pretty grey. There exists far better solutions to the ethical concerns than the ones used. Solutions that have been used elsewhere.

Please define lolevil

But Hallifax is a collective. It isn't evil. It isn't good. It just is. Everything within it just is. It is cool that there are better solutions to the ethical concerns then the ones used but that isn't Hallifax. It is a city which killed its Air Lords because they deemed them worthless. It has slaves. Hallifax is cold and emotionless. I don't really understand how it has gone down any sort of snuggly route. It doesn't have to be skulls and death evil but Hallifax also isn't pure and happy good. It's motto pretty much is that the end justifies the means.

Evil for the sake of being evil. Choosing the morally questionable act for no apparent reason beyond it appearing morally questionable.

Or to put it differently. Which redeeming features does Hallifax have? Striving for art and science is not a redeeming feature, not when employed as the goal itself, as then it just becomes something you put on a pedestal.

To me the epic quest was just more proof of what hallifax is to me, logical and cold. I could see Hallifax authorizing the killing hundreds of children for science and at the same time beginning a project that is "lawful good", the only difference is that hallifax would cover up the first while promoting the second, shiny exterior and all that.



I think it's more... good and evil are archaic concepts, most things would be sorted into primarily beneficial or primarily detrimental to the collective, a project might not be allowable because it will likely result in the death of one too many servants but as soon as they reduce the number of expected casualties it is fine.



Yeah... it's not really about shoving it in peoples faces, but maybe more like the way people can treat children. "Oh don't worry, you just run along and play while the grown-ups talk". If you've ever interacted with the npcs you'll probably notice it, they are not thrown in your face but it's small things like referring to people by caste, at one stage a mob would not speak until either the lower caste players left or were given permission by appropriate authorities to receive the information.



Agreed, except that hallifax is really lawful neutral if anything. Again, hallifax will do actions that are "good" and "evil" based on what is most beneficial to them generally doing the good acts to prop up the facade to hide the evil acts behind but if "good" actually provides the greater benefit there is no reason they would not do so.



Well, not all trill are whimsical. Have a look at the higher up mobs in hallifax. I don't remember the artists caring very much about the servants who are lugging around the gemstones beyond the fact that they haven't completed the delivery yet. Seriously, there are some people who I really want to see complete the epic quest just because I think it would break their character and some of the things you encounter every day in hallifax have "evil" origins.

Honestly? I cringe at some of the things people do/say in Hallifax that show they're completely ignorant of the coldness of the city. One day Phoebus is going to snap and just start throwing (more) people off the city. Like WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU ARE -pow- DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE SAYING -bam- I WON'T TOLERATE THIS KIND OF INDIVIDUALISM -kaboom-

If only. Instead I'll just keep grumbling every once in a while and doing my job.

The argument that it is coldly logical falls rather flat IMO. The Collective, during the epic quest is very "wink, nudge nudge" about the information it shares with you. It's not plainly stating it in any logical manner. The choice of wording and timing, and even the fact that it is kept so hush hush, doesn't suggest "the most logical approach" to me. If this was a purely logical choice, it should not require to be kept locked up as such a secret, and should instead be shown clearly as an example of the sacrifices neccessary for growth. As it is, the Collective strikes me as knowing that what it does is wrong, but attempts to maintain a fake front, in order to draw in more individuals into the collective spirit. In other words, a fairly typical Elder Brain.