I did take into consideration some of the comments on the races, my post was updated for formatting but I altered a couple things.

Is 14% worse sipping worth 14% less damage taken? No. The sipping still prones you to death more easily from mana and ego kills, so while it is 1 for 1, it also hurts in other areas.

P.S. For charisma on bard races,
Viscanti caps at 17 (12 racial with + 5 if you get to weight of 8)
Merian caps at 20
Elfen caps at 21
Faeling caps at 22

Viscanti also have lower int (which is important for damage for bards still).

Luckily, most forms of killing involve damage, so...

Edit: This part doesn't really make sense for the argument.

Yes, I agree that there is always a give and take involved when it comes to buffs/weaknesses, but I'm not quite sold on the idea that the sip penalty should be reduced while retaining all the other buffs as is.

I have not stated any changes for Viscanti as of yet. I have asked the effect of sipping be changed to what we believed it to be for evaluation purposes, but have not asked for the actual level to be changed on them. We are still working out where Viscanti want to be.

sober and in control
1030
1008
984
974
950
928
slightly flushed
900
888
876
872
feeling a bit tipsy
860
848
832
820
feeling decidedly mellow
810
802
792
786
feeling no pain
782
774
766
758
746
decidedly sloshed
740
732
728
720
712
706
698
694
686
680
entirely inebriated
676
670
664
660
656
650
644
638
636
totally plastered
632
626
620
610

Numbers for minorsecond on myself as a dwarf with differing levels of alcohol. I didn't bother to go any further down because at that stage the alcohol poisoning was doing damage too so it doesn't even matter. Interesting that you can get 10% damage reduction without any fumbling.

This would actually make dwarves a solid race for warriors who want to be more of a tank. Unfortunately, I don't see the metagame of Lusternian combat to be about tanking. You either mess up their system with things like blackout/badluck/illusions/other such afflictions and skills or you kill them with lots and lots of damage. There is no place for people who want to tank their way to winning a fight. Against classes that rely on burst damage such as bards, this is great. However, you're not really doing much to them, yourself. Also, in group combat, if you have a few people all wanting to kill you, you're probably dead no matter how much health you have. I'm not sure putting dexterity from 10 to 11 is enough to change this.

Also, the dwarf resistances all went down. In total, they have 8 levels of resistance, so overall they lost 24%, all in common damage types (cutting, blunt, magical, poison, fire and cold). I suggest buffing a few of those up another level to compensate if dwarves are to excel at being tanks, which their stats really point them towards being.

You might be surprised, particularly on the side of brewmeister dwarves. Tanking is a pretty big deal in group combat.

Were your numbers from the regular game, or from the test server? Just for clarity's sake.

Test server.

I want to test it again with trans brewmeister, but I need Sior to help me with that.

That's actually a fair point. Thanks for explaining, I hadn't really thought of it that way.

Anyone know what Noetics does in Veneration?

Ahh, I did not know that.

The last three don't have AB files yet. I updated the wiki with what I can find, but until we get AB files, we can only guess. I don't think it has anything to do with the racial revamp though.

I am in concordance with Catarin's ideas. Granting +1, perhaps even +2 to merians (particularly aimed at casters and non speccing) would be best, that and reducing both electric and fire weaknesses to 1 (though reducing only fire to 1 is also ok). Increasing the equilibrium recovery to 2 (with con at +2) also puts it in par with faeling, while faeling is arguably less tankier (lower con) they'd have the sipping bonus. The racial superiority of merians are truly not reinforced, which is contrary to what most of the lore tells us...

However, unlike Faelings who have low strength, Merians have high Intelligence, which works in accordance to their equilibrium bonus. You can't add high damage along with being almost as fast as Mugwump. Then Merian becomes too much better than Mugwump. Give them some more con, and reduce weaknesses, but not a quicker equilibrium bonus. Leave that quickness to Mugwumps.

You will be hard pressed to find 'high damage' anymore that isn't Fillin, Balestone/Shatterplex or a Bard. The value of high int is really ambiguous since DMP/stat scaling and is a bit harder to balance. Yes, I swear I'll post something more constructive in a second.

This, in general.

All races that rely on resists to make par need to be seriously looked at, or we're just repeating the same damn mistakes as before, with new races being thrown under the wheel.

If you're going to make resists crap, better boost up some serious, meaningful stats.

A better way of putting this would be "... that isn't specific skills, damage buff stacking, or artifacts". INT, especially for casters, is pretty meaningless for damage once it goes above 14-15, though it will make a big different at lower tiers.

The difference between a mugwump and an imperial merian staff cast on the same target, as is now, with all other variables the same, is about 36h. It's nothing to write home about. You are welcome to go play on the test server and see where the exact point of diminishing returns is, but I doubt it will be higher than the number I already gave.

I haven't looked at how INT affects bard damage, so I don't comment on them.

A quick idea for middling caster races that could use something useful - innate un-terrain based regen of mana/ego. A few warrior races get this for health, so why not let a few other races get it for the other vital stats? Only problem is deciding which ones.

Okay, here's that elaborate post. It touches on Humans, Viscanti, Dracnari, Trill and Lucidian.


Humans
o It looks like, based on the change, every archetype received -2 overall stats. Does this mean evolution will start at level 60?
o I'm uneasy with a wholesale nerf so I'll bring up a previous point: is it viable to have humans 'devolve' in stats unrelated to their archetype while maintaining the given buffs in relevant areas? (str/int etc)
o In a similar vein: altering size in evolutions will have an effect on their dex and health pools (I think), so that's another route to consider. Also viable if, you know, Size ever means anything again.

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Viscanti
All those resistances don't really help when you have a monster sip penalty to deal with. Likewise, their stats are subpar compared to say, dracnari. Specced dracnari, in my experience, function quite well despite the sip penalty, due to their above-average h/m/e pools. Dracnari stats in general are solidly 'above average' around the board.

Buffs:
o Sip malus: 2 -> 1
o Master Viscanti: +1 int, +1 cha (for a total of +4, +3)
o Brood Viscanti: +2 dex (total of +4)
o Irontongue Viscanti: +1 int, +2 cha, +3 dex (for a total of +3, +4, +3).

With INT scaling as it does, most caster types prefer to focus instead on CON and CHA. Unless that scaling is reworked (probably out of the scope of this review) Viscanti are, in the present metagame, a subpar caster race. Master Viscanti should be given more int and cha to fit in with this trend, leaving them with 16INT and 13CHA, both above-average and parallel to other spec races such as Prismatic Lucidian. For Brood Viscanti - hell, Viscanti in general, I don't really understand why 'tainted racial amalgamation' automatically implies 'terribad Dexterity'. DEX has very few buff opportunities: kabobs, truefavours and Antler spheres being the majority of it outside of Bards. Dexterity is also a must-have for Warriors in general as it contributes to landing wound afflictions - the buff in dexterity would leave Brood Viscanti at 14, which still pales to the Elfen Lord's 16 but is offset by the race's resistances. Irontongue Viscanti's buff will let them cap at 19 CHA - lower than the other bards, but again, also offset by the racial resistances. The INT buff will help them fit in with the current Bard damage meta. I throw in a +DEX because dodging is tied with this stat, which the Viscanti are worst off at, next to Seasinger Merians. Bard specializations in general are copy-pasted across the board, which may have to be looked at.

Nerfs:
o Magic resistance: 2 -> 1
o Blunt resistance: 2 -> 1
o Cutting resistance: 2 -> 1

I'm not entirely sure on the magnitude of this. I figure that with the sip malus alleviated and some vitals-related statistics improved (making all of the races considerably more viable than before), asking for a -1 resistance level across the board isn't much of a stretch. You're giving up a bit of tankiness for a lot more offensive (wounds, dodging, damage) and influence (charisma) potential across all the races. With the taint regen and influence bonuses, Viscanti should be a solid race with these changes.

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Dracnari
The Dracnari are like an inverse of the Viscanti to me: high stat pools with little notable resistances/weaknesses, which is acceptable. There's only one thing I'd change:

o Split the caster spec races: Inferno Dracnari and Illuminated Dracnari.

Currently, Illuminated Dracnari spec gives these changes:
-2 strength, -1 size, +2 intelligence, and +1 charisma

With the Illuminati bashing attack being STR-based, their spec race is a self-nerf. Instead I propose the following for them (Illuminated/Illuminati Dracnari):

+1 strength, -1 size, and +2 charisma

The Dracnari share a similar problem with the Viscanti in that they aren't very influence-friendly races. Overall, subpar influence potential on their spec race is detrimental to an organization. This change would address that - between Populus and Netzach, an Illuminated Dracnari would reach a respectable 16 charisma, a solid number for influencing. Since Dracnari already have above-average STR, the buff need only be a minor one to allow Crush to outpace Cosmicfire. Since their INT is already respectable (14 unspec), and because it is not vital to their abilities, there is no need to buff an Illuminati's intelligence stat. The Pyromancer ('Inferno Dracnari') spec is fine as-is.

If the dracnari out there, for whatever reason, demand a reduction to their sip malus, reducing the Dracnari's natural CON/INT by 1 point would be a fair tradeoff. Likewise, reduce the Illuminati Dracnari spec charisma bonus by 1.

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Trill
This race only has two problems: no tankiness and the flying regen.

Buffs:
o CON: 11 -> 12
o Flying Regeneration: Change to Cloud Regeneration.
o Utility-related, potentially reduce the balance loss on their innate flight and/or grant a resistance to winds.
o Storm Trill: +2CON, -1 INT, +5 SIZE (Total of +3, -3, +5 leaving 14CON and 11INT total when including innate CON buff)

Trill in general are a fairly untanky race, largely due to their subpar constitution. Compare to Lucidian: for comparatively terrible Charisma, Lucidian has superior intelligence, constitution and resistances.

To help with this, I propose a +1 innate CON bonus to help all trill in general. Storm Trill are a solid warrior race, but also suffer from subpar tanking ability, with 13 specced CON. The additional CON and INT penalty will make Storm Trill more like -warriors- and less like Birds With Swords.

The flying regen, we were told in a previous thread, could not mesh with cloud regeneration. As such, it's probably a universal sentiment: change the flying regeneration to a clouded one so it can be realistically taken advantage of.

Nerfs:
o Electric resistance: 2 -> 1
o Cold resistance: 3 -> 2

I feel that downgrading Trill's two (fairly commonly-occurring) resistances to compensate for the overall CON buff is a fair trade.

---

Lucidian
This race is the polar opposite of trill, even statistically: trading subpar Charisma for overall better combat-capability. Adamantine Lucidian also suffer from a lack of use due to a smaller CHA flexibility when compared to the other Warrior races.

Buffs:
o Prismatic Lucidian CON: -1 -> 0
o Adamantine Lucidian: +2 DEX, +1 CHA, +3 SIZE (for a total of +4, 0, +3)

I didn't touch upon this in the trill report - size is an important stats for Warriors. While casters get their size nerfed, for some reason warriors do not get buffed: trying to hide behind a 10-size trill or 12-size lucidian warrior when facing beckoners is asking for a painful death. Likewise, SIZE has an effect on health pools, helping the tankiness of both races.

I don't feel a caster-spec CON nerf is necessary when the race already suffers from naturally low charisma and dexterity. For the Adamantine Lucidian, their DEX buff set them at a Level 1 Human stat of 12, which is subpar given the stat's contribution for warrior wounds. I also don't think an arbitrary -1CHA to an already CHA-deprived race (regardless of spec) is necessary. These changes leave Adamantine Lucidians with 14 DEX, 11 CHA, 15 SIZE - given their resistances, this puts them on par both with Storm Trill and other warrior races.

Nerfs:
o Magic Resistance: 2 -> 1
o Psychic Resistance: 3 -> 1
(Optional) o Prismatic Lucidian INT: +2 -> +1

An overall buff across the board + mitigation of already-bad CHA needs some sort of tradeoff. Magic resistance is fairly valuable, but I feel that a mere 7% extra damage isn't a terrible tradeoff. I added a psychic damage resistance nerf to go the extra few inches: Hallifax's spec races in general would be more viable with these changes.

The optional INT nerf is to counteract the removal of the CON debuff, if deemed necessary. 16INT is still a respectable caster number. Imperial Merian walk around with 18INT but considerably less tankiness, as a comparison.

---

I'll look at the other races later today, these were just the main ones bothering me.

Size is 10hp/point. That means nothing. Does not affect dexterity either.

In that case, size's impact on health could be increased as far as the health:stat ratio is concerned. And it does have some impact on DEX, unless that change is solely due to Shrink and Expand's mechanics.

Also thanks for responding to the rest of the well-thought-out post, geez.

I wouldn't bother with more INT for master viscanti so much as more DEX. I'm going to disagree with you on them being subpar casters pre-change, owing to their combination of resistances and high con being more an asset than the higher levels of INT other caster races have. If they were not used, it was because of medium cha/sip malus hindering influence and a lack of a speed bonus (which I've heard some insist is necessary for Nihilist combat). In the case of master viscanti especially, however, I feel that the 8 DEX hurt just as much as the sip malus in regards to stance/parry function. Resistances are taking a hit on their own, and then you are also suggesting reduction of resistance levels as well. Ensuring that their base DEX is 10 would be more appropriate for keeping them in a tanky caster role than an extra INT point, assuming those nerfs you ask for are implemented.

I also don't feel like an extra point of con is a fair exchange for the loss of two resistance levels in the case of trill, but that might be because my experiences with playing that race have all been with an artie-loaded changeling.

Size is also less important for warriors than you are suggesting. Even if you are size 25 now, people can still slip past you - the only way to really be an effective blocker is with BLOCK FIRM, which requires power, and which all warriors can use just as efficiently at any size (and is also why I bothered making the blocking suggestions I had for igasho).

The dex/str changes are dependant upon how far away from your natural size you shift. Note: enlarge/diminish size enchantments.