Viscanti have already received nerfs, through resistances being nerfed, so I'm not sure if suggesting even further nerfs is necessary at this point, especially since it has been pointed out before that they need some sort of buffs (absolutely no one plays them for anything but roleplay).

The argument that Irontongue Viscanti doesn't really need much more charisma added due to Vileblood is fairly unreasonable to me. As a Nihilist Viscanti, so of equal charisma to an Irontongue Viscanti, I can hit my buff cap without even extinguishing all of the possibilities so I imagine it's even more laughably easy for the Cacophony to do. That still leaves the Viscanti Cacophony at 17 charisma when their equivalents elsewhere hit between 20-23. I can only imagine how this influences their hunting - doesn't minorsecond depend on Int and Cha? I'm aware of diminishing returns mind you but I'm still pretty sure Cacophony would take 20 cha over 17 any day.

The gap is wide enough for it make a drastic difference in village revolts despite how little such has to do with actual influencing. Say what you want but debating a faeling or an elfen kills majority of Magnagora swiftly and it -really- doesn't matter what they're trading off for that effectiveness, the point is they have it and the rest doesn't matter in a room with sanctuary. The argument that Magnagora 'used to win revolts somehow in the past' does not convince me either. Magnagora used to win because it used to have a sizable force, many of whom were demigods when other nations didn't have many such. Now we do not have a sizable force (most of the time), and the force that we do have has below average charisma, and demigod status is as bountiful as loti spores now.

What this boils down to is either forgoing the notion that Viscanti are not supposed to have a high charisma because almost everyone in the Basin views them as abominations, or further enhance the buffs that were implemented last time to alleviate this issue. Malarious once asked for some sort of debating buff - personally, I don't really see it happening and it would eat up coding resources to implement. So would redoing how debating works altogether (which wouldn't be such a bad idea). I don't really have much else to offer here, I'll leave brighter minds to figure this one out.

Dex is also a huge issue and resistances on top of the sipping malus do nothing versus warriors. The sole reason why the only Nihilist Viscanti combatant, who tried to make it work with Viscantiness, gave up being Viscanti for Human was dexterity and then laughed at my 10 demi dex to his demi 16.

In summary, what I believe the Viscanti need is as follows:

+1/2 CHA for both Irontongue and Master Viscanti AND/OR Debating Buff
+3 DEX to Irontongue Viscanti
+2 DEX to Brood and Master Viscanti (seriously, 8 dex, really?)
+1 INT to Irontongue and Master Viscanti
-1 sipping penalty

When all specs request +dex, it is better to just give the base race the change and move others to the difference. Honestly I can see all Viscanti getting charisma, why short the warriors? Summarize and adjust a little (since it is a Viscanti saying it!)

+2 base dex
+1 base cha
+1 CHA for both Irontongue and Master Viscanti AND/OR Debating Buff
+1 DEX to Irontongue Viscanti
+1 INT to Irontongue and Master Viscanti
-1 sipping penalty

I think that if thats what the Viscanti wants it should be fine, combatant or no it is about would you use the race over human mainly. Debating buff would still rock, be the burst debaters instead of the over time debators (btw, the code for that is already in place, attitudes in dramatics does this).

Oh, also.

NERF HUMANS!!!

Have you seen the changes??

Hey, so what'll happen to the 2 stat points from the human nerf, is there any chance they can simply be redistributed to the other stats instead of outright deleted? I'd be pretty down for that.

I also like how as the racial revamps progress, the requests for viscanti buffs get more blatant. It's funny noticing that at the beginning, people were willing to drop the tainted regen and reduce the magic resists in exchange for buffing other stats, but now the latest iterations have just been all buffs + sip penalty reduction in 'exchange' for reduced resists.

Well, if you weaken resists, and weaken vulnerabilities, that helps merians (who need it), has no disadvantage for faelings, has negligible disadvantage for elfen, probably hurts trill somewhat more than helps, (level 1 fire weakness vs. a couple of pretty nice resists), may be an even-ish break for lucidian, and pretty flatly helps dracnari (fire resist gets weaker, level 3 cold weakness, that they are much for likely to see, gets weaker).

Of the specialized races, only Viscanti really take it in the face with that change. They're sort of in the same-ish boat as Orclach, thought not as much of a walking mana/ego kill.

Also, since this is pretty flatly train-wrecking Kephera, we should be boosting their stats up towards illithoid goodness. Or throwing thoids in the grinder too. Either works.

For Orclach-

Consider giving +2 to CON and DEX. This would help alleviate some of the lost toughness, as well as give them some of the dex they need.

As an added bonus, at 15 dex, we might actually see the darn race used as a monk now and again, rather than just the odd pureblade.

While I am on board with humans being nerfed I would rather have seen the caster nerf remove a point from something other than con. Casters are already a non-tanky sect of the game and dropping their con a point makes kittens cry.

Edit:: I have proof... my kitten is crying... nevermind the fact I am refusing to share my sandwich with her, that is an unrelated situation!

I have.

Two digits off don't quite make them not the best race out there anymore, in my opinion at least. But it's a remarkable step forwards already since no change has ever touched upon humans yet (I think).

Edit: I won't even bother properly replying to that nonsensical notion of yours Sojiro. Rainydays already summarises it best. Take the regen for all I care, useless as it is, maybe then people won't be all 'uh, but you have regen too!'

Viscanti will see a sum total reduction of 21% cumulative resistance with these changes. This isn't too far off from the 30% cumulative I suggested in the previous thread. The stat spread increase to go with this one isn't quite as high, and some of it is spread into INT, which in particular for master viscanti I feel is just cosmetic.

Naturally, if we change our minds about dropping weakness/reistance to 7% per level, this will need to change too.

Caerulo brought up an interesting thought earlier: for the most extreme races, would levels beyond three be acceptable, or would some archaic code hinder this? It would make it easier to make some races tankier again, certainly. Yes/no?

There's nothing nonsensical about my argument given there's been a very obvious history of...we'll say 'viscanti' players looking out more for themselves than any notion of actual balance.

My point's always been clear: why do you keep asking for upgrades but aren't willing to acknowledge that you do have some pretty great things going for you as well. For instance, viscanti have one of the best base constitutions in the game, nice resists (even nerfed), and even pretty above average strength. Just stop making it look like you're the worst race ever.

Default
STATISTICS:
Strength : 13 Dexterity : 10 Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 12 Charisma : 10 Size : 13

Brood
STATISTICS:
Strength : 16 Dexterity : 12 Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 10 Charisma : 10 Size : 15

Master
STATISTICS:
Strength : 11 Dexterity : 8 Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 15 Charisma : 12 Size : 11

Irontongue
Strength : 11 Dexterity : 10 Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 14 Charisma : 14 Size : 11


They're not the worst, but these stats are pretty lame (save for maybe Brood). I can beat out Master Viscanti entirely with no sip malus and more tailored resistances.

As Kephera - I'm not going to say no to a buff but I don't feel it's really all that necessary.

1. Don't lump us all in with Malarious. Malarious is the only one who constantly argues for his "x race" and "x guild" without acknowledging anything good they may have.

2. Brood Viscanti have very good constitution at 16. I'd consider them one of the more viable classes with that much con. Obviously things like tae'dae have more but tae'dae are not considered a viable race.

3. I thought the general point from Viscanti players is that no one cares about the resists? Are they good? Sure. Would most people rather have something else? Yes. The resists don't balance out something like the sip penalty. And with the nerf in resists an ok class took a decent hit. It isn't as if it is a top tier class taking a hit.

4. Again, Brood Viscanti get 16 strength, the rest get 13 or 11. Though the classes that get 11 don't need strength for very much so I'll happily give you strength. Brood Viscanti get good strength.

Overall: Viscanti are and were an ok race. An ok race that was given average stats and a sip penalty in exchange for strong resistances. The resistances got nerfed. And it isn't as if Viscanti was ever the combatant's choice, it is a RP race. So where is the damage in looking for stat buffs in exchange for our saving grace getting nerfed?

And really, the resistances can go. Viscanti would benefit from higher stats over resistances.

I still think my Viscanti proposals were fairly balanced!

Everyone's going to have a different take on things, even if just slightly.

Right, not the worst ever, so pretty meh.

Now with Malarious' suggestions:



All of that with a better sip. You're basically making base viscanti humans with resists who sip a bit less. As far as the class specific specs, you pretty much tailored them to become more or less 1-2 stats point below the 'best' race specs for each class, while at the same time maintaining your high con and improved tanking. If you really want me to make a chart of that, I can, but it'll be a bit.

And this doesn't even take into account class defs to improve stats like surge, presence, vileblood, highmagic, etc.

That's why I don't think you guys aren't exactly thinking things through.

Edit: I find Other's argument more compelling, and I personally liked Alianna/Rag's ideas more.

Did you really mention surge, highmagic, and other universally available skills to the class? Yeah and Viscanti can attune too, do you realize how silly you sound?

Having been viscanti many times including in beta, it's always been sub-par to the other org races. With even more nerfs on resistances, changes are needed more than ever before.

Not meaning to diverge away from the rampant Viscanti silliness abounding, but I have a question:

With the approximate changes Sior has set for human casters now, the following should be apparent:



But when I tested in the server, I have the following stats:



Now, keep in mind that I have nothing up but the +1's to everything from the titan perk and the demigod +CON and +INT...but that doesn't take into account why I have more STR and less DEX than I should be having. Could it be double checked that the human evolution is -correctly- assigning the statistic points, please, or should I bug this..somewhere? Cause as a caster, really, more DEX is far more desirable than more STR and the code wonking out is worrisome.

Edit: Oh, and just so that people know what I'm talking about:



Though answered, forgot to mention Nightwraith has a DEX bump too. Bad size change.

Looks right to me, casters should have lower dex than physical classes. PS shrink, because you're messing up your own argument by expanding for more str/less dex at 23 size

Well that answers that. Damn you expand throwing my numbers off.

Also, what argument? I was wondering why something was off rather than the projected amounts, not swaying something?