"Even" fights in Lusternia is like that magical chocolate unicorn that poops credits and arties: it doesn't exist.

Because of lag.

Or zerging.

Or OP skills.

Or your teammates are noobs.

Ergo, fun, even fights are a crazy idea and you should feel bad for believing in such a thing.

My fetishes and the like have nothing to do with this, nor do I enjoy 'cheap thrills' - if I did, I'd spend my paychecks on hookers and blow.

That is besides the point, though - I raid because, as others have stated, I want fighters to come up off Prime and defend their plane so I can get a fight every now and then. The 'arena queue' is no excuse for the lack of conflict on pretty much every plane, besides a domoth or a revolt every week or two. What I'm doing is going up to Vortex with maybe 4 - 7 other people looking for a large scale fight.

Do I wish Gaudiguch had better people to defend it? Yes. Do I feel bad for getting the meager amount of fun offered to me? No.

Sure. And the winning side can say "Yay, we won!" and be happy for a while. Except they're not happy either, since no one showed up to chase them. So they come back and keep stomping the losers until they've had their fill. The guy that wins the chess match doesn't keep beating you after the checkmate, and if he keeps saying "One more game, one more game, one more game," he's being a griefer. There has to be downtime. It's a lot better these days, but I clearly remember nights where I either turned off loyalsays and ignored my RP, or logged out and didn't play, because no one could take their "win" and be happy.

1. Its 2am.
2. Its an argument that has occured since the beginning of Lusternia. Maybe just maybe you should read the history of the argument.
3. Seriously go read it, and understand. We dont need another thread about it.

It's in the interest of the 'fun' on both sides to back off when they feel they need to.

I recall a Fire raid where we killed the guards at the Flame. I felt that was excessive; Gaudiguch once again proved that they were ousting anyone with half a clue (15 guards at a nexus, was it? Really?) but I was there to enjoy fighting other players, not bashing their NPCs.

It's the defender's responsibility to realize that they can't win a fight and that it's best to just turn the other cheek, transverse down to Prime and recuperate for awhile. I've had to make a few of these calls myself; it beats the demoralization of constant death.

It's the attacker's responsibility to not go overboard and hound an organization into the ground. (But precedent shows they will never do this, so consider the following as well:)

It's the defender's responsibility to tell the attacking side, through their own actions, they're done putting up with the raids. Don't show up to defend. People get bored and they will leave. This is especially easy to do when the enemy is beating up your synthetic lifeforms on Vortex that your guild really has little to no compelling tie to. Seriously, the automata are your fleshwork toys and pets. They're not angels or fae; you have no compelling creed to bust your arse and give your life for them. Gaudiguch and Hallifax have the easiest time of going 'Yeah, whatever' and moving on. Take advantage of that.

Really, if you can't put forth the effort to repeat the argument yourself, it must not have been a very convincing one. :|

I'd also like to point out that you CAN catch some serious crap for saying "I died a lot on the last raid, so I'm going to skip this one." At the light end of the spectrum, you might get hit with a lecture. At the heavy end of it, there are people who spend a lot of time and effort gaining the respect of their citymates, and all it takes is saying that once for real life YEARS of your invested time to disappear.

Pretend that the only people you're affecting are overly sensitive nitwits all you want, and parade that excuse all day long, all it proves is that you're not playing a multiplayer game at all, and you're only making it harder on the people who are. If that's where you get your kicks, well good for you, go do it somewhere else because after the first day or two in a row, it gets really old, really fast.

You keep saying that the only penalties are those you let yourself feel, and hits to morale, but in a game like this, where we're competing with a great number of VERY well done MUDs and MUSHes, in the end morale is the only thing that actually matters in Lusternia. Keep grinding people into the ground and that 'log off for ten minutes, till the raid is done' becomes 'log off for the day, because your work got undone' becomes 'take a week off to reorder my thoughts' becomes 'take a break for a month or two' becomes 'what was that game I played?'. In the niche market that is MUDs, we CANNOT afford to drive away players just because a few d-bags want to get their e-lulz in.

This doesn't just go for raiders, but they're the most easily visible offenders for the "Grind the opponents into the ground" camp, so they tend to catch all the flak.

No, but as I have always and will always say: Mechanics > RP. Fun > RP. RP is a spring of Fun, but Fun trumps RP because at one point or another, RP obligates you to do things that aren't fun - and things that aren't fun suck. The blaming the victim part mostly sounds like a regurgitated anecdotal argument - I mean, I'm not ever going to blame myself for you not having fun, but I definitely will not blame you one bit. I will, however, blame people that complain instead of seeking a resolution. Admitting that whomever is pulverizing you, for instance, is not only a resolution (as then there's really no grounds for them to continue, theoretically), but a wise decision from a leader. I respect city/defense/raid leaders who know when to surrender on behalf of their group, because they are not only minding their own fun but minding the fun of others. The reason raids are so prevalent is because there is no definite way to seek 'victory' in Lusternia (or anywhere in IRE).. let alone hurt an org. Killing smobs is about the only way, as you eventually hit their Nexus and take some power.



1. That's cool, it's 2AM here. Trivia: did you know it'll be 3AM in approximately 59 minutes after posting this?
2. It is an argument that I am not precisely hearing - or if you are stating it, you are doing a very poor job.
3. We obviously do, because nothing is being done about the futility of raiding.
4. See below ---v

in before "we don't have a rants page, please take this IC" post by a random admin. Also in before lock.

Fun is greater than RP, sure. It's a game, after all. But I play the game because of the rich histories and interactions, which lead to RP. If I let fun trump that, it means I'm off playing another game. You're still basically saying "If people are dicks, well, go play something else."

'Log off for ten minutes until the raid is done' - Okay, that makes sense.
'Log off for the day because your work is undone' - What? What work was undone? A fleshpot died, or you lost x power due to npcs being killed.
The rest after this is totally nonsensical.

Unless you're the commander of your organization's military force, or unless you're a Protector or Security member (who, in asking for these positions, knows rather intimately how this whole thing works, usually) there should be nobody yelling at you for saying 'CLT I apologize, I must depart. Good luck.' and then walking into a manse and QQing. Unless you deliberately go out of your way to create the obligation, no such obligation exists that demands you serve your organization to the death until the game no longer becomes fun for you. If someone tells you otherwise, they are too embittered and attached to their organization to realize we're playing PRETENDY FUN TIME GAMES, here.

Even the leaders, if they are well-respected for their competence, will be understood if they say 'We can't win this fight; wait for another day' and order a retreat. They do not lose face for doing this. Chances are, everyone else present agrees with the assessment.

Seriously. Pretendy Fun Time Games. You are not obligated to defend when your much-valued Roleplay simply stops being fun. That's the way it works; that's the way it always works. Angels? They die to defend Celestia, as is their duty. Same with the Lady Fae, same with the polyhedrons on Continuum and the automata on Vortex. They are there to defend the place; their death is understood as a necessity of their existence.

Raiders rarely actually raid for e-lulz, as much as I angst at Glomdoring for stepping on my Internet Fairy Friends and demoralizing my organization. People enjoy conflict and fighting; that's why they keep coming back. There's nothing wrong with this. Both sides just need to establish limits; if they can do that, the conflict can be healthy. If the raiders are going overboard? You have the power to starve them out. Stop defending. People will not mind the break. The raiders will end up going elsewhere. If they hound you to the point that it creates a toxic atmosphere, you can plea for admin intervention. It's happened before. In the end, you ultimately cannot lose the game.

(Unless it's, you know, the game. That you just lost. Sucker.)

Conflict quests are any quest mechanics that involve harming another organization, directly or indirectly. Killing the supernals and giving them to Luciphage and putting the black spheres into the Megalith to summon the Devourer of Stars is a conflict quest.

Killing all the flesh pots and doing (????) with (!?!?!) to enact Operation Crucible which does (????) is, similarly, a conflict quest.

Which was how I perceived the question. On the topic of fae conversion, it does exist too (I thought everyone knew that?)

No, what I'm basically saying is, "if people are being dicks, realize that it is in human nature to be dicks". Also, people are not dicks just because they are raiding you or killing you. They're doing that because they asked for a fight, you gave them one out of some invisible sense of duty/obligation by defending, and then you died and they won. They stayed on the plane for another since it provided results.

Want senseless raids that do not kill smobs to stop? Give us another outlet of conflict that involves PK.

I'm not saying that by making Fun > RP, RP is devalued or destroyed. It just means that once your RP forces you to do 'not fun things', stop taking RP so incredibly serious and just.. go do something else for a bit or subvert the 'not fun' and go back to having fun. Might I suggest asking for terms? Or is your RP so obviously ingrained that surrender is not allowed (which then means RP is forcing you to do something unfun, aka defend against more raids)?

The only reason why anyone raids is so they can pick a fight and kill people and then leave when it looks like things aren't going their way.

I think Hallifax has been raiding fairly decently for now. They come and kill all the little fleshlings, but they stay even when we bring in a big group of people to defend.

I'd love to one day be able to reciprocate with similar raids, instead of the bash-and-run raids we had up till now.

I don't fully agree with Rodngar/Furien about QQing being a feasible solution to raiding. If I log in to Lusternia, it means I want to play. If I were bothered by the raids, I don't want to have to quit a game that I was planning to play.

Although, if you're really getting frustrated by the excessive raiding, either do as they've suggested and take a break (maybe play on an alt for a while?), or leave the combat clan and protector so that you won't be expected to defend all the time.

I think it's all very noble for the playerbase to be concerned for Lusternia's behalf in terms of conquering the MUD market and keeping/expanding fellow players. But the truth is, there is no real need for that. The people behind the game are professionals, even if some of you might want to flame the admin, they have insider knowledge "you are not privy to". At worst, they'll make mistakes and Lusternia will take over Aetolia (or is it Imperian?) as the red-headed step-child of IRE, at best they'll realize there is a problem when they see one and fix it.

Using that as an excuse to tell raiders to get off your lawn is at best a perceptive insight that might earn you a minor job in IRE's ranks, and at worst a selfish excuse to deprive others of their fun instead. As players, it is not your job to worry about the state of the game. It is the admin's job, and if the admin isn't delivering, you can take your right as a consumer and tell them to stuff it, and go to greener pastures. A griefer that doesn't go away when no one is defending is just that: a griefer. Or maybe just a basher who likes to bash on enemy territory. Either way, it doesn't matter- if you're not in the mood, let him have his kicks. Your rights as a player, as so many people have continually pointed out, supercede your character's rights to save forest critters or air elementals whatever.

If someone's giving you flak for not defending to the point of ruining your work and investment in the game, that person doesn't deserve a leadership position. Vote him out, replace him. If he's not a leader, he shouldn't have the clout to do much. At worst, go to the admin as a customer and find a way to resolve the issue, and if there is ever a problem worthy of the issue command, this is it. If the admin rebuff you and call you a whiner... well, clearly you can invest your time and effort in another game that reciprocates you better. Like I said, the responsibility of running the game is with the admin, not the players.

Serious question here, too; do you think the people in Hallifax are without restraint?

As much as they want to kill a Fleshpot to see how the conflict quests work, have they gone out of their way to hound your organization? Hunt your people down at every opportunity? Jump your newbies when they go offprime? I don't think I've ever killed anyone that either did not attack me first, or that I did not warn of my intention to attack at least beforehand (IE - you're screwing up my questing, please leave or you will be escorted). Dys and Kialkarkea can probably attest to this. I imagine that the rest of Hallifax is the same way. The dynamic between Gaudiguch and Hallifax is one of the lighter, multifacetted ones in the game; it's not 'THEY ARE TAINT/NATURE/WYRD/LIGHT AND MUST BE OBLITERATED', it's more of a desire to reeducate and contain (or enlighten and liberate, as the case may be) the opposite organization.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think it's a deliberate desire to grief, though certain players on either side might deserve that on a personal basis. Also, 'raid etiquette' is another matter entirely, but I digress. You can't pretend that your organization's RP is more valid than mine. I need to carry out Operation Crucible to finally end a racial and ideological war that has spanned centuries and perhaps millenia of time, bringing the Collective at long last to supremacy over its enemies and righting the calamity that was the Great Loss. I can't ignore this any less than you can ignore your supposed obligation to defend. As a player, I can OOCly restrain myself - and I do - but that can only go so far. I don't think anyone can truly claim that they would act differently when their organization gets on top of a particular conflict dynamic. Having been on both sides myself, especially, I doubt anyone can say it.

Celina, Tedd, Inagin, Lawliet, Munsia, Ethelon


Herein lies the problem. Every time someone tries to establish non-mechanical limits, someone who either doesn't like those limits, doesn't want them, or just plain doesn't care goes and s with the 'other side'. Some people actively go out of their way to stir up trouble for no other reason than to stir up trouble, and then disappear, and then the org 'responsible' for them is called out and retaliated against for a member who was acting entirely on their own, or even against the org's precedents, creed, or direct orders. Which they then use to justify having done it in a vicious cycle.

Saying "both sides need to establish limits" is, unfortunately for Lusternia as it is now, a pipe dream at best. There will always be loose cannons, who will always be cited as a reason for a 'counter-raid', which will always be used as the justification for an eternally escalating level of inter-org backstabbing and jackassery, and even starts spawning intra-org jerk-offs.

Oh, certainly, each organization has these sorts of people. You realize, though, that they ultimately win their trolling victory when you let them influence the way you play the game, right? If the organization in question doesn't act to reign these people in, I figure they're equally guilty in that they enable. You can't really do anything about them, though. So you have to stop letting it get to you and just do what you can.

Dysolis showing up at 1AM to kick elementals on Air? I go kill him. If it's, say, Esano/Hyde/Alger/Munsia all together? Screw that, I'm outmatched! Transverse down, shrug, commend everyone for trying, return to life. Air Lords respawn in an hour. Little is lost.

I've said most of my piece here, I guess, and Eventru will probably forum ban me for the second consecutive time in a row at any moment. Well, fiddlesticks. One of these days I'll at least go out with a bang!

So when can we start posting funny pictures?

The better question is why you need a time mark to do so.