The admin could just say, "we disapprove of the shoddy treatment pyros received, and have decided to approach the problem again fresh."

Instead of letting a broken system create the mage equivalent of Cantors.

Not that I expect this to happen, and not for want of me trying before I said it. Mostly, its a lesson in "it was done once, easily, and the way the populations in the org are now, it could very easily happen again."

(Edit- not that I ever wanted or am suggesting that it be restored to pre-nerf and left there, just, reset it, and immediately do the special report again, as it was crap.)



I believe it should be burnt, buried, then exhumed and hurled into the sea, and the ground it sprung from salted.

Especially for a guild that knights can't actually do anything to, because their defense is also insane.




Get an offense that isn't multi-target group doom-spam, and maybe then. If it requires active set up.


And not that you're saying this, but the argument of:

"Hey, Gaudi had no envoys to defend it. It's not OUR fault the admin let us rip their skillset to shreds" is possibly one of the most asinine statements one could make on the topic.

Why have health totals if there can be no class that will damage kill in a one on one situation? There is no Guardian class - hell, no priest class in IRE, in my humble opinion - that kills via damage. It's all 10p instas and other approaches. A unique niche as a Guardian is a completely possible and appreciable concept. Just because Warriors can't because of poor formulaic balancing doesn't mean Researchers shouldn't be allowed to when it is entirely possible to do so while we're still laying major foundation to the skills of the class.

Simple. For all the same reasons that we had health totals before researchers.



For good reason, perhaps? Perhaps its not a unique niche as much as a problematic, large-scale-combat-ends-up-being-about-damage, so giving one guild special little snowflake status on damage kills when the rest of the basin's guardians are designed different is possibly a not so great idea?




Exactly. So, lets bite this problem in the nub before everyone but hallifax is complaining about it in two years.

I went to Geb about shatterplex because - under certain circumstances - I was doing entirely too much damage to a very specific group of people.

Geb asked them to look into how it was scaling, because it was possible to one-shot lower health people.

What ended up happening was that shatterplex was debuffed in its damage by roughly 40% to 50%, which is pretty extreme; too extreme, in my opinion.

What would have been better would have been to evaluate and drastically lower the flat damage aspect of the skill while compensating by slightly increasing the percentile damage aspect. That way, it won't ever one-shot anyone from full, but it'll smart you good if you let the Researcher get 5 rubies and resonation on you.

After testing with Rodngar, my biggest concern for group combat is balestone. It does a TRUCK load of damage. Since its not tied to any conditions like demesne/terrain, no wonder you're killing rooms full of gaudis.

The shatterplex hurt, but I think its largely ok now- it does take me to massively timewarped afterall. I'm not certain how it scales, but I defintely was feeling the hurt with my big health pool, so you're still easily flooring people, and loading them up with timewarp in the process.

Which I imagine is even worse with sensitivity. Or with reckless perma-stuck on them with all the time warp going on.

I'd much prefer to see Researchers be modified to work on their condition kills, rather than be walking damage fountains. Halli will get bards for that, some day.

When was the last time you actually tested this? The changes prompt this question and researcher v knight combat has changed, so...

We do not see many Nihilists right now but I assure they have both the capacity and training if they ask any of the former Nihilists. Torture, (which is hugely weaker than balestone by leaps with higher cost and a req), omen, sensitivity investable, etc etc.

Other People:

Balance loss is not related to damage kills in any way. The argument is not even a valid shot at it. So long as it still messes with focusing it will still do the trick.

Researchers got a better offense but I would still love to see some of the changes like diamond, diamond + rebounding makes it a pretty much face to wall fight. The only time you will usually lose right now is pure attrition of timewarp and they made it far easier to do burst timewarp with the resonator. Attrition has never been taken well in Lusternia and many times has been entirely called for removal. Only dreamweavers and hunger has remained, with the logic you can always "cure" hunger. I do believe researchers are fightable, but they are not all that killable if you use a weapon. The exception would be chain proners perhaps, likely regeneration in the instance of healers.

Guardians were not made to fight well with just a primary skill, you learn damage kills as a Nihilist because its the soonest option you have and even then you need necromancy to do it properly.

It is possible that the administration may look back at things to "adjust" things, but the fact no envoys noted something should not be considered the end all. The truth is alot of the time if you say "nerf that" it is taken as bias or part of an "envoy war". If I said on envoys right now nerf badluck it would probably be fine, if I said nerf foresight (aeonics) I bet several people would have a fit and talk about how it is easily managable and I am just biased even though we made a full effort to remove every dodge (familiarshield, spirit dodge, and shrine dodging) except acrobatics. I understand the skill designs may be old but they should have been kept to the same standard. Acrobatics is trained to get a dodge, another guild gets it as a single skill with no real cost (you cast it for eq).

Illuminati under the changes posted by Alianna would be usable without being insane. Tell me badluck stopping focus + jinx with a homunculus who can give anorexia or addiction on its own time would not be fairly nasty. Overall I think the thread is doing really well and just wanted to throw in a few sovereigns.

Envoying isnt just being an envoy anymore, its also fending off any allegation your thoughts are out of a "war" mindset.

For those Illuminati/Pyromancer/Institute people who want to see some changes, you should send me a message with your suggestion since, as it stands, I don't have anything planned for after January.

I still don't have something planned for December. Considering some of the suggestions here, or maybe asking a look to be taken at Balestone damage scaling, but just so busy with finals. Another one coming up in an hour, wheeee.

There is a slot up for badluck, I think it needs a little more work but it is bad form to envoy something already with a slot. So yeah, just get balestone and we can knock out both of the problem skills in 1 month.


Just for heads up, if the person taking over badluck could go with the idea at the beginning of this.... that would be splendid

Yeah, hesitant to put up a BadLuck report while that one is sitting there. I really wish he had finalized it before leaving, I'd rather not see it miss the December deadline if a new envoy isn't appointed soon, and then sit there for another month. Will probably bug an admin to go finalize if it one isn't appointed soon.

Just FYI, Kalikai -can- ask Sior to finalise it. So maybe if someone pokes her to ask her to do so.

Aleria submitted a list of envoy candidates to Kalikai, so hopefully we'll have one soon.

Alternative for BadLuck: Badluck no longer procs on focus balance, id or superstratus. When BadLuck procs and the target has focus balance, they lose focus balance for 4 seconds but there is no other effect. If they are already off focus balance, they get one of the current badluck effects, ie. loosing eq/balance.

Or badluck can stop taking balance or eq and instead just acts like stupidity (probably a worse rate than 25%) that gives tempins.

Hi there, just wanted to add in my own experiences with balestone. Concerning balestone damage, it really is very high. For example my total hp is around 3616, and when a researcher began to balestone, I was taking exactly 1771 damage everytime. That is almost exactly half my hp, and even with me sipping like a mad man (not to mention me having the bonus of healing faster from elixirs), I still was dead very quickly. During it all the researcher simply stands there with their passive curing and deffensive enhancing gems, not to mention some of their gems being offensive, and they can just keep on balestoning. Balestone uses up 2 power, which means one can do around 6 balestones (this including them refilling from their reserves during it all). Most of all Balestone is extremely dangerous in group combat because it hits everyone on the enemy list with that massive damage while others can slow down the enemies offensive. Maybe make Balestone targetted and reduce damage slightly?

Concerning Badluck, I admit it is a currenlty "number 1 current worse afflict " But also I think it really is the most important thing Illuminati members have that can make their offensive work. Also Badluck fades pretty quickly but I admit in groups some can just keep on spamming it on someone while others thrash them around, but one on one it isnt as wow. Also you have to admit we arent seeing many deaths by Illuminati out there, so I think that should be taken into perspective that they arent the doombringers everyone thinks they are . So in the end I do say it could perhaps need a tweak but please dont try to nerf it's important completely.

Well, not seeing any kills by Illuminati isn't really saying anything, as there really aren't any Illuminati combatants. Wait till some decent combatant comes over to the Illuminti (hint hint), there will be much crying in Hallifax.

And are you kidding about Badluck not being wow in one-on-one? It is AMAZING(ly good or bad, depending on which side you're looking at it from).

My condolences.


This.


Just because nobody stabs you with a machete doesn't mean the machete isn't complete deadly.

This is largely the fault of the Illuminati's own incompetence and inexperience with their skills. Between ectoplasm and hekoskeri sluggishness, badluck can keep you off balance indefinitely. It wrecks anyone. Sure, an Illuminati may be unable to kill a victim because of their own experience, but badluck on its own will prevent them from being killed as well because of how hindering it is.

These proposed changes would make the class far more affliction-oriented. While I admit my homonculus ideas have potential for abuse (it's like triple-sleep without the beast in some cases) I still feel the balance/eq mechanic has to go. Fundamentally a bad idea.

Edit @Caerulo:
And seriously, unless Aleria is appointing either yourself or Iytha, most of the Illuminati can't tell (insert insulting 'their X from their Y' analogy here) and your envoy will likely be a flop unless they agree to be used as a mouthpiece.

Update on Homunculi: I took about 10 cosmicfires to kill my homunculus. That's roughly 5000 health (around my health as well). Gotta find some lower/higher health people to be willing to test it out to see if it's based on caster's health, or fixed at 5000 health.

I had an idea for the homunculi which is based on the sensory homunculus. Obviously, not all of the below would come into effect, but just some suggestions which I feel would be more in line with the fact that homunculi are in Transmology. (Imagine if someone has Trans Transmology, but not Paradigmatics. That person can order his/her homunculus to badluck/greywhisper when the caster himself/herself cannot. Doesn't make sense to me.)

Skin/touch: sensitivity or recklessness (in the form of numbing the pain). Or perhaps a new affliction which doubles burn levels, or simply gives burns. Alternatively, make it something like SpiritGuard, where you transfer some of the pain over to your homunculus (%chance to reduce damage taken by a certain %)
Sight: figment/illusion on homunculus balance. Alternatively, allow you to see from the afflicted person's eyes and maybe send illusions remotely. Or hallucinations
Taste: gives an affliction that -1 sip balance or lowers sip value or -1 herb balance or addiction
Smell: I'm rather stumped with this.
Hearing: Dizziness, vertigo

@Rodngar and Furien: Well, regardless of whoever the new envoy will be, I'll be sure to pester him or her relentlessly about Badluck.