Ok, so as you guys probably know, the release of Crystalweapons gave me and my array of Institute minions some more material to work with when plotting out the Institute advancement system. We'd just fairly recently completed the system up to Doctorate, which is a lot farther than most people have gotten so far, and so I've decided to go back and review the system we've got so far in order to integrate these new Departments and whatnot.

The question I've run up against time and time again is this: what works in terms of guild advancement systems? I've been in several guilds, and I've led two so far (and one House back in Achaea), and it's not like I haven't been around the block a few times, but right now my creative wells feel pretty damn dry.

Part of the reason for this is that the Institute advancement system is sort of different. It doesn't have branching paths (yet; that's one of the things I'm considering with the new material), it doesn't have any combat requirements at all, it requires (gasp) writing, or at least talking. Building a guild from the ground up has given me a little leeway in terms of experimentation that I haven't had anywhere else.

I'm sort of stalled, though, in terms of where to go from here. So I'd like to put the question to you all. What about a guild advancement system makes it good, and interesting? What things need to die in a fire? Do systems without any combat requirements beyond a set of novice equipment work? What do other guilds do that seems to work, or not to work? And (a more personal plea) is there anything I'm doing horribly wrong, or even horribly right?

Please note I don't know anything about the institute advancement path.

Your advancement to GR3 should be fairly easy to get. Now remember writing is not easy for everyone so writing an 800 word book to be published in the library at those lower ranks should not be obligatory. (You can however make it an option of several alternatives) However it is also important to have that unique guild feel in those tasks, in that function I like tasks like read the book/scroll/help file about our guild history/ideals/etc and discuss with an undersec/sec/leader. Anyone can do them and it can lead to some fun interaction. Outside such tasks of course the standard collecting stuff while utterly boring does tend to help newer players to obtain equipment. And of course crystal facet creation tasks.

Don't let a lack of people participating discourage you though, a lot of people join guilds for skills and not the ambiance and short from handing out guildfavours like candy those people will never get very far in a guild.

The parts that I like about advancement tasks are those that involve the guild's lore. Writing can seem rather daunting to most people, whereas discussion is less so. Furthermore, discussion can go both ways, where if the person taking the task lacks certain information about the guild RP, you can fill them in and prod them in the right direction. However, I've seen some rather good writings that were prompted by the tasks, so I wouldn't give up on them.

I'd advocate a choice-based advancement. I'm not sure if you've done so already, but having compulsory 'core modules' and then choosing between 'electives' seem to be rather effective in getting the Illuminati up to GR3. (Oooh, you could even call the different 'paths' 'Majors') However, when it come to the choices, I realised that practically everyone just chooses the same few tasks which are either easy, non time-consuming, cheap, or takes little effort. I'm currently trying to see how I can balance the tasks we have to make the tasks more or less equally desirable for everyone to do.

You'd probably want some incentive to get people to do the tasks. Could be a small thing, such as better credit sale rate, better harvest ratios, or something that will really get them excited, an area in your guildhall restricted to GR5 and above. Right now, the Illuminati has zero incentive for people to go beyond GR3 because that's where the harvesting privileges are, so barely anyone does the Pathway tasks.

There are two things that have made the Spiritsinger system work very well. At first blush, neither of them suits the Institute, because each of them is designed to emphasize the freedom-of-expression ideal of a bard guild by eschewing structure, quite the opposite of the Institute's ideology which reinforces the structure of the scientific method. However, I think there's a take-away element of each that could be helpful.

1) The Spiritsingers have no requirements, only rewards. We don't want any advancement stuff to feel like homework. If someone chooses not to advance, or to advance in an unusual way, that's fine. I find positive reinforcement is far more effective at motivating, especially in a world that already feels full of busy-work and obligations too often. By not requiring advancement, we have always had very good levels of participation in it (with the notable exception of leadership positions: I can't even bribe people into undersec/sec positions with credit salaries). This suits the "everyone does their own thing" feel of a bard guild, but as the scientific method and mindset are predicated on requirements, you wouldn't want to eschew them. But what you can do is focus on the positive. Your actual advancement steps may be built on requirements, but the attitude you bring to this is not "you have to do these things because it's your obligation", but rather, "you want to do this because of the benefits and rewards" -- just like the reason you follow scientific procedures is not because someone's going to hit you with a stick if you don't, but because of the tangible rewards, in the form of solid conclusions and revealed truth.

2) While we do have "paths", they are essentially an illusion we created for people who said we needed them. Ultimately, you can do things in any order and combination you like without losing any of the rewards or having to duplicate any effort. Our six paths are really just ways of organizing the (at last count) 48 things you can do for advancement, but there's no real benefit to doing them in line with that organization. Dance to the beat of any drummer you like. And even if you do, each of the six paths has so many branches in it you have dozens of combinations of ways to do any one of them. I think the Institute will want to have more linear paths that reinforce the systematic quality of the scientific method; however, you can still gain some of the benefit of our more open approach through having brachiations within the paths. If a path has six steps, provide two choices for each step; that makes 64 different ways to complete that path. This alone is enough to keep people from feeling like they're stuck if they see one step they don't like, which is a major reason for people to just stop advancing (and they might do it long before they get to the problem step, just because they feel, why bother pushing towards a brick wall they can't get through anyway?).

This is kinda how the current Aquamancer advancement system is set up, along with changes I'm working on. We have task for Spouts, simple stuff to get them acquainted with life in Lusternia and helping them learn and locate certain things. After that it's Initiates and Adepts, with Majors based on each of the Tide Lords at the top. I plan on changing it to have several required task, that fit in with our scholarly nature, while also expanding on the other parts of the guild, combat, cultural work, creative people, etc, and a list of task that they choose from for a set number. With also one "free" task thrown in.

I've always been a fan of giving people options, some combat orientated ones or do some scholarly tasks, or a mix, whatever. I don't like forcing people to do anything aside from things they would already want to do (get cures, equipment, etc.).

I can't say if it's a success or not, but as has been said, getting to rank three shouldn't be a chore.

I've been writing guild advancement paths for a good seven years now. The following might not all be applicable to the Institute itself, some is really general and some much more specific, but some can be more easily applied than others.

1. Relevance: Make sure every task is either relevant to the guild's roleplay, or relevant to what a newish player should know as a member of that guild.

2. Avoid grocery lists of expensive items. Basics are good; assuming your fresh-from-newbiehood guild member can drop 50k is another thing entirely.

3. Make sure all of the tasks you have listed are accessible. If you want someone to read something, give them the right title and tell them where to find it. Don't send them on a wild goose chase. Don't assume that other people in the guild can tell them where to find it instead. Yes, this is a problem in the Institute.

4. Create "sections" that are short enough for, assuming basic levels of competence on both sides, the interviewer and interviewee to complete an interview in a relatively brief period of time. Anything that takes an hour is going to be harder to get done just because you need to have two (or more) people who know that barring Internet failure they'll be available for at least the next hour.

5. You have 19 GF-able ranks in a given guild. Use more than 5-7 of them in your advancement system! It really wasn't that hard for the Pyromancers to get people to GR10+ if they were willing to do the work for it.

6. Even the best advancement path falls apart without the right people. Get people in the interviewer positions who both want to and have the time to do interviews. It's all well and good to have lots of people who can (theoretically) run interviews, but if they're never around or always have to leave the minute someone asks them to do a rank-test, what's the point?

7. Most people like variety. Create a mix of writing heavy, writing optional, and even non-writing tasks. Allow for structured flexibility - a lot of people thrive without any structure, but many others end up like a beached whale if you give them something too open-ended.

Oh, I'll expound upon the Institute's system, I suppose, since people have asked.

You've got the basic newbie Undergraduate tasks (Novice->GR1), with a whole bunch of groups of requirements; completing a single group gets you a time advancement. It's simple stuff like knowing basic geography, having some equipment, doing power quests, and such.

Then you've got Bachelor exams (GR1-2), which are slightly more advanced. Gem donation tasks, being able to find the Continuum Spheres, having a set of cures, knowing how to do the Generator quest and what it does, plus a discussion about temporal physics and stuff (in reality, they don't have to know anything at all; what we're seeing is how well they do with logic and suchlike, testing their surmises).

Then Master exams (GR2->3), which are more advanced again, and begins the theme of becoming more open-ended as time goes on. You've got to contribute to the Matrix and do commodity quests (because Hallifax is a Commercial government), and read the Taint Wars histories, with a focus on how Hallifax played a role and how it was completely blameless (really, I promise ) , as well as the Collectivist Manifesto. You've also got to be able to start speculating about how Aeonics works ( ing Aeonics, how do they work?) and be able to talk about science experiment the Institute might do. That gets you to GR3 and the privileges that goes along with that.

But in the Institute, GR3 isn't really "full member." You get more privs, but the focus is on Fellow at GR5, so we move along.

Candidate exams (GR3->4) are pretty stupidly simple. Read a book of the Elder Wars, summarize it, and speculate on some information from that book that could be used to do SCIENCE. Perform a science experiment and report on it. Speak with a Project Lead, and hopefully become an Intern with the project. Talk about the guild motto. This is where I'm considering putting in stuff about the Departments, and possibly a path-ey sort of thing.

And Fellow exams (GR4->5) are super open-ended. Read the guild Charter and talk about it, and do something big and Sciencey (some examples are given in the ghelp file).

After that comes Doctorate, which requires you to do more big and Sciencey things and then eventually write a Doctorate thesis-- I saved the mandatory writing for really late, and there's a way around it if you do something else that's worthy of the guild honor.

EDIT: Also, the Taint Wars histories and the Elder Wars histories really need to be disseminated to the city libraries. :/ I've tried getting copies and it's hellishly difficult-- you basically have to copy it out by hand, which is silly.

MIRACLES

The only reason I never got past GR2 in the Institute was because the system started forcing more science and writing on me.

'Come up with a research concept' wasn't as easy as it sounded. Originally I wanted to research why Truetime enchantments and alchemical substances composed of mercury (ie quicksilver) provided resistance against applications of aeonic force (in quicksilver's case, indiscriminate of the force's magnitude at times), but ... yeah. How am I supposed to science that out or prove an ounce of it? How do I even begin organizing it? Writing is not for everyone. While the GR2 exam was purely conceptual, later exams started asking you to expound on your original idea and actually do the research. It was just a turnoff.

I have like ... two more pages of text after this I launched into about creativity and the Illuminati's advancement system (which I personally think was off the hook, in the good way!) but I'll PM you all the informations so I don't spam the thread.

Oh, they're awesome indeed, I especially like the Psychedelia one, but the problem is... no one ever does it. I'm thinking of how to get incentives in without lowering the privileges the GR3 already have, but not break the guild's bank either. Still working that out though.

Roleplay.

I mean, Gaudiguch probably doesn't value that anymore and I wouldn't be surprised if Aleria's leaked all my secret goodies to her den of alts, but the Paths system is overloaded with incentives. Who doesn't want to be a secret agent? How is that not badass? Or pondering those big questions in life? Aspiring to take over the Mayor's position? Oh right, alts, nvm.

In all seriousness, GR5 is supposed to get you:

- Flesh harvesting priviledges (!!! this is a big one)
- GR5 + notoriety for completing a path, and a relationship with your path members as a result.
- Guild positions, depending on pathway in question.
- You could offer more guild credits in sales, I suppose!
- Unrestricted (as far as they know, at least) access to all of the guild's dirty secrets.

I personally am a HUGE fan of the Tahtetso grading system of accumulating 'Marks', which would fit perfectly in the Institute. For those that don't know, the premise of the Tahtetso is to reach Lumosis, and there are many such ways to do so. As such, we have many different Marks (see: tasks) that you can do. Earn enough Marks, and you get bumped up to the next GR. They range from simple things such as "collecting X amount of goodness-only-knows-what" to "write and epic poem and get it published". They range AAALL over the board!

I find something like this would be perfect in the Institute's "Lusternia University" role-play. You do enough stuff, and get a degree. What said stuff should be... Well, the posters above me pretty much explain it perfectly, so I won't go there.

On another note, you should change the titles of advancement to correspond with higher level degrees. Associate -> Bachelors -> Masters -> Candidate -> Fellow -> Doctorate -> Et cetera et cetera. You'll add in another guild rank that way!

While I am aware that this is slightly off-topic, that actually isn't the RP of the Institute. That might be the RP of a person who is in the Institute, but I have never myself, nor heard anyone else ever say that the Aeromancers are a college of "lesser" sciences. The only Institute RP I have ever seen that even mentions the Aeromancers is "Oh, those crystals don't have anything to do with Continuum? Well, probably not our business, the Aeros can deal with it then." Which is hardly what you are saying Anisu, so I'm confused as to that being the RP of the Institute.

As to advancement programs, I've always been a fan of easier is better. The most interesting advancement tasks I've ever done have been about lore/history/RP. I've never found "Write a 1,000 word scroll about the Demon Lord of your choice" or "Patrol this natural area each time you log in, message your report to this secretary, and write a paper about the type of plants growing" to be very interesting either. I've also found forced combat requirements to be pretty boring a not education. Waiting around for someone of some specific class to show up, be around your might, and be willing to spar is not interesting. The guild does have 19 ranks in it and making it too difficult to get anywhere has never made any sense to me.

I also do like some structure and guidance. The Spiritsinger advancement system seemed fun to me as an older, more experienced player since I could pick out what I wanted to do. But, I've always liked some guided learning when new to a game (or a city/guild). I've seen guilds do a "core" learning program of all introductory and mandatory things about getting basic equipment and learning about the surface of the lore and history (what you would expect someone to know for at least basic RP, ie. "What is the Taint and where did it come from?" for a Mag). Then it was nice to have the option of picking a path and focusing on it (or jumping around between paths) so that I didn't have to get bogged down in combat, or writing essays, or whatever people just generally find unpleasant! Even playing a scholarly character (and most people in the Institute play a bit at a scholarly character), I very rarely feel the burning desire to log in and write an essay. With new players just starting the game, alts, or old players transferring to a new guild, those tasks seem tedious and uninteresting and do set up barriers to using the advancement system. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been turned off by being required to write and essay or something similar. Most of us are probably in school or working a job and don't log in to the game to do more work. That's always something to keep in mind for advancement systems I think.

So... I suppose in summary:
-Determine what is "necessary" to know to play a good Researcher and make that be the tasks to GR3.
-Determine what is an intermediate level of know that you need and make that the tasks to get to GR4 and GR5.
-Things that might not suit every person should be optional tasks outside of the "core curriculum", things like actually do experiments, writing essays, combat, etc. Having those be elective credits doesn't damage the core of the system but allows people to pick what they think would be the most fun for them.
-After GR5, having paths/Departments to pick a focus on that have more demanding tasks is totally cool since you get all your perks at GR5 and anything you do after that is just for your own development if you want to take it further.
-Come up with learning objectives. If you have tasks that don't meet your objectives, then cut them out or rework them!

Hope that was helpful! Also, I'm more than happy to help out with stuff OOC or IC if you need a hand (I really just leave it to you because you come up with much more brilliant things than I do).

EDIT: We also already have an associates degree in timeness program set up for any Sentinels who want to do a little side-bar scholarly RP. It's not an Institute rank, but still a degree the Institute gives out.

I do want to point out that writing isn't mandatory until, like, GR7, and even then there's an alternate way if you really care that much. So it's not like it's WRITE WRITE WRITE. That's just the most straightforward way of doing it.

To someone who didn't write the requirements herself, everything from GR2 onward appears to require a great deal of writing; if not of the formal "this is getting published" variety, then at the very least heavy note-taking and pre-written answers for each requirement.

I can't think that most people are going to pull a fully-formed experiment outline from behind their ear mid-interview (and even that's "writing", since this is a text game).

I have always said, and will continue to say, that science projects in Lusternia are more about creative writing (or, more vulgarly and probably accurately, BS) than about science. Knowing real-life jargon just helps to make it plausible.

Personally, I've always thought requirements should be something that helps characters learn the game - not necessarily some arbitrary and boring tasks. For instance, aeromancer requirements seem like they should be based around learning melds, etc. At least for the guildrank 3 stuff, unnecessary requirements are just a turn off, especially if you aren't going to allow advancement in other ways until they're completed.

In short, the first set of requirements really should be focused on teaching about the game with a hint of guild flavor. Delving deeply into the science/rp of a guild should be more optional tasks that can be done later, not early hard requirements.

Also, if you want to get into more science-oriented roleplay of your guild, but the institute tells you no, that's for them only. Who cares? Just go ahead and do it. Rival colleges and the theoretical sciences/applied engineering all have that sort of relationship in considering the other worthless. You just got to find an angle to let you look down your noses at the institute for being impractical snobs (or whatever). Letting people not in your guild say how your guild ought to be played is just silly.

Institute stuff:

For all it's worth, Ileein. I actually quite like your advancement system, I don't necessarily think it's bad to require some actual 'study' at higher guild ranks, and I don't think your current advancement system is that hard. You could consider moving the writing requirements back further (Professor anyone?) but I don't personally think you should just make them entirely opinional and just favour everyone up so they can put Prof. Dr. PhD. in front of their name.

Aeromancer stuff:

To clarify, I don't at all think writing is a bad thing (I majored in history and took a minor in English studies IRL, that would be a fantastically stupid thing to do if I hated to write) - but I think that when creating an advancement system, one needs to look at the requirements carefully and make sure that, if they aren't supposed to involve "write write write", they don't look like they do

Also, again, huzzah for using more than 5-7 guild ranks! I don't know what the full list looks like - if "Doctorate" is supposed to be the ultimate accomplishment below elected positions, would it make sense/be possible to do some shuffling?