Seems to me that if the only issue to the class is keeping someone in the meld, then the stun report fixed that. Especially with Mirage+Ashfall (which is annoying)+passive stun and the chance of blindness from Salamanders.

All other issues sounds like it stems from a lack of people actually wanting the envoy position, and even when they do acquire it, they don't pinpoint anything else specifically that needs fixing.

This. If you need any more proof that pyromancy sucks beyond the fact that all the combatants left the guild then you don't pay attention to history. We all know that top tier combatants don't stick around in the nerfed guilds for very long, otherwise how would they remain top tier?

It's not really a question as to whether or not it sucks, it's a question of how to fix it.

Quick edit: Munsia isn't in the pyromancers, she just still has it's skills. There are no active top tier pyromancer fighters.

The only sentence in that entire post that answers Xiel's is "utter lack of any way to stop people trapsing (sic) in and out of the demesne at will." The rest is a bunch of pointless crying. Bulleted lists are good, crying about nerfs is not. Even if they are exactly as bad as you say they are, whining isn't helping your cause. Give a list of problems and a list of solutions, and let people pick over it.

If you truly believe that after all we've done and discussed regarding this issue, when the Illuminati came out ahead by miles with the Transmology report..

There are plenty of ideas on new skills that could help.

Raahl gets credit for all of these ideas.

Eruption: prone/rubble. (either or. or maybe both?) demesne effect.
Lava Flow: Forces you out of the room in one direction randomly. demesne effect.

Changing ashfall or smokehaze to do this: Every demesne tic, it releases a cloud of smoke into the room. Each cloud of smoke causes a small amount of asphyxiation damage each demesne tic. It can be blown to another room by gust, however it will not be destroyed. If it is blown to another room that is combusted, the cloud will continue to exist there. If it is blown to a room that is not combusted, it will dissipate.

Backdraft: 5 power. Causes a medium amount of (undetermined damage type. Maybe asphyxiation with fire?) damage for each cloud of smoke in the room.

Isnt that a Geo effect? Can't remember

What if Mirage had a chance of swapping exits on you, silently? That is, you move north, there's a decent chance you move a different direction instead.

Yes, that would be a small something to add to it's usefulness in combat.

I...am still waiting to know what it is that makes the skillset suck. Sylphas pointed out that Akui at least tried with one blip, but then that, I think, was handled by the passive stun now. All the rest is just wanting for new things without any actual reason behind them.

And trying to say, oh, but all of our combatants left the guild, isn't a solid argument for buffing a class. I see the Shadowdancers are down to one 'combatant' but you don't hear them saying it's cause the skills suck. People move on and try new things. Problems with guild retention doesn't (always) translate into problems with guild skills.

Also: Ashfall already does that. That's why it sucks to deal with that and mirage considering it moves you to a different direction than you initially typed.

Solutions HAVE been given and discussed, several times. Not in this thread, granted. But telling posters to do what they've already tried to do in the past, to no avail whatsoever, as if it's some sort of new thing that hasn't been tried on the topic before? Yeah, not helpful either.

And any time I can take the opportunity to point out when I feel that the envoy system experienced a complete failure, and why? I'm going to take that shot. I mean, hell, I'm not even in gaudiguch any longer, let alone pyromancers, and I don't see any real chance of going back there. In fact, of the three races I'm likely to be now at any given time, ALL of them have a level 2 fire weakness (or higher!) That's how much the situation bugs me, on principle.


As for researchers/illus- not even gonna get in to that here Rod. You know exactly what I think about balestone and even the concept of "damage kill guardians".


A quick bullet list of things that were discussed at length in the past, without implying that any of these would be implemented together-

-repairing the burn level progression, returning it to what it was prior to the report. With the loss of wildfires, burn output was reduced at the same time the intervals were widened. The change seemed gratuitious, with both of these things together.

-Alternately, keep the intervals the same, return wildfires, make it break legs. This got the "omg geos" response. Problem is, pyros are salve based, so you're limited on options for keeping in the theme. Practically, this would fix the hindering issue.

-Make fire rain go through protection scroll. Pyros can't bring down fliers at all, because if they have prot scroll up, the anti air effect doesn't hit them. Not so hot.

-Make a failed cremate not eat power, or in the alternative, add a good chunk of burns. Not a perfect comparision, but dysaberic pressure takes 0 power on a fail, and if fail, adds a cloudcoil. Cremate does absolutely nothing on a fail, and takes the same amount of power either way.

-Shuyin had an idea a while ago for something called "backdraft"- from my old notes, the exact idea was "Get a move called backdraft that blows all allies and enemies one room away regardless of where they are so long as they're in the meld or something!""

-another- 07/28 20:13 "Another way to can approach is that increased burn levels, instead of slowing down bal/eq marginally, can slow down liniment balance marginally."
(as burn levels are cured off really really quickly due to very rapid liniment balance)


And there were plenty of other ideas from other sources. I asked a lot of people what they thought and how they'd approach it. But, couldn't get a special report to repair the thing, couldn't get consistent envoying, and couldn't get combatants back in to the guild to work on it.

So yeah, when people get all up about "you just need to try"- we went down that road for a number of months. It ended in me wasting a lot of people's time. The best thing, for me, to come out of this is the opportunity to remind people what happens when you don't have proper balance in a powerful envoy report.

Bah, this is why I try to stick to things I'm sure of.



NERF CHOKE

/thread

Where's my bingo card...

Nice, you're comparing a guild with Vadi in it to a guild with... no one. That isn't a glaringly obvious sign. *cough* bias.

Matter of fact, I think I may just be the only active Demi in my guild.

If people move around and try new things, why aren't any people trying pyromancy? Know why? Because it's nerfed to nil and back to celestia. Face it, there is a problem.

And...you seem to be completely missing several different points. Let me try reiterating one of them again: if there is a problem, then state it. Saying 'oh, our guild numbers are low which means our skills suck' doesn't help you make your own point about something being wrong from a logical perspective.

If the best you have is that little flaky reason, then there's no point to this thread you've started.

If you're not even going to read the opening post, I suggest you see your way out of the thread. The second you're a pyro for a year, I'll care what you have to say. Until then, in my opinion, you are blatantly trying to keep an opposing force nerfed down so they aren't a threat.

I like the pointless rhetoric in here.

"This sucks! Everyone, help us with ideas to buff it!"

"Oh, by the way, the envoy process sucks. There's no point to it. That's why this is so sucky. lololz."

+edit:

"Oh, and also, if you don't agree with me, GET OUT OF MY THREAD!"

What part of 'I don't understand what my own skills do' or 'my ABs are unclear' translates into a poor skillset?

Edit: Oh, wait a minute. My mistake. Seems like I missed that one blip about firewalls. Go for it if you want to upgrade that. Beyond that? Not much to draw from your initial post and your subsequent ones either.

Here comes the gloom/halli army to nerf freedom back down into the ground again... We are so losing the Envoy Wars game.

On your next reports, why don't you just have us all frozen back in time and put us out of our misery instead of this slow nerf beating into the ground?

I'm putting this in my sig.

What nerf? I'm not opposed to fixing a problem if there's verifiable proof that it exists, but all this thread spawned so far is an issue with keeping someone in a meld (which I don't think I have to repeat probably got fixed by now).

All the rest is 'get out of my thread if you don't agree with my baseless ranting'.