Also, on the principle of further synergy, I would be more inclined to think that Cantors should focus on as frost/freeze path instead of a 'holy fire' combo point build (as that kind of feels too similar to SS with their 5 spirit hubbub).

I don't want to really try and copy another spec, but I've always wanted to do some sort of ego thing. You know, the Light humbles us and all that.

If we had an ego-kill though, we we need to stop debating and such from working wouldn't we? Or we could just debate someone down (or whatever else.) Or our allies could just egodrain while we prep the egokill.

Not really an ego kill per se, just skills that work against our enemies ego.

Still I like the sound of that flavour Pesu. Ego sounds about as viable as anything else honestly.

I think the frozen idea has more merit (As it synergizes with Aquas, which is a big thing), though perhaps the ability for Cantor's to have a few songs whose strength scale off of the opponent's ego in some way would be neat.

Sigh. I've been asking and asking and asking and asking for any input people can give on my new report (the whole holy fire levels thing that Pesukaru posted - this is the 'revised report' that Talan mentioned) and have basically not gotten any input. Maybe I should have asked here from the start.

The current status on the Starhymn report was that yes, Jayden completed and submitted his version to Sior, and when I was appointed envoy, he asked me if I wanted him to withdraw it so that I could redo it, and I said yes, because I hadn't been happy with the whole freeze levels thing. (In my opinion, it would have made us too reliant on teaming up with an Aquamancer, because we wouldn't really be able to build any freeze levels in solo combat. I also felt that it didn't really change what it was we DID as a guild enough, and that we needed to have a solid synergy within our own skillset first, before working on synergy with other Celestian guilds as a group combat strategy.)

Anyway, I think there were one or two comments in this thread about the proposal about this being similar to Spiritsingers, which is something that when I came up with this idea initially I definitely felt I needed to take every step to NOT do, and I feel that I've made it mechanically very, very different from Wildarrane. Here's my reasoning.

Wildarrane spirits:
-Give the bard 2 DMP per spirit, and max out at 5 spirits total. (AncestralCall)
-Can be used as watcher spirits. (AncestralWatch)
-Give a chance to block attacks. (SpiritGuard)
-Have a chance to increase the passive afflictions from AncientCurse from one affliction per tic to two. (AncientCurse)
-Deal passive cold damage to foes and have a chance to prevent them from fleeing. (AncientFeud)
-Increase damage dealt for self and allies. (AncestralFealty)
-Are used to build up to increasingly powerful effects on a single target. (CairnLargo)

On the other hand, the proposed holy fire levels:
-Give the bard 2 DMP per level, and max out at 5 levels total (CrusaderCanto)
-Allow the Cantor to expend a holy fire level to add an extra affliction to their attack by having RighteousPsalm imbued. (RighteousPsalm)
-Give an increasing chance to deal damage and deliver an affliction when attacked. (ReverberantShield)
-Are required and expended on the new PrincessFarewell to prevent it from being spammable. (PrincessFarewell)
-And in addition, Starhymn would be given a chance to shrug afflictions for the Cantor and their allies. (HopesCarol)


The only thing that's shared is the first effect, and there are very specific reasons for that. The DMP is given because originally in Starhymn, HopesCarol gave 10 DMP to cold, fire, and electric damage for the bard and allies, and while it was agreed that that should be improved, I wanted to keep that effect within the skillset. One suggestion was to increase that DMP to encompass all types of damage, which I did when I moved it to CrusaderCanto, however it does not effect allies any more as that doesn't make sense with the skill (think an aura of holy fire around you slightly protecting you from attacks - it wouldn't make any sense for this to protect someone else from the attack, just because they can hear you and they're standing nearby). It also only maxes out at 10 with full holy fire, instead of being a flat 10, so in this sense I feel it's an overall nerf to the effect as you're not always going to have full holy fire when you use it for other things. However, for CrusaderCanto on its own to be a useful skill, i.e. for people who just have that skill and none of the other holy fire ones, it has to have a small effect of its own. Granting DMP works well for this, and I think that's the reason Wildarrane does it too... however DMP is something that pretty much all guilds have access to, and you can't really argue that it's a clone of Wildarrane just for that without also saying that it's a clone of Moon because of Drawdown, or Celestialism because of Halo, or... well, you get the idea. Second, the five spirits/five holy fire levels really have nothing to do with each other... this uses five levels of holy fire because that's what I think will be the most balanced, the deciding factor mostly being the 3-level cost of PrincessFarewell.

In addition, even if we disregard that, the way it would work, mechanically, I feel is completely different. Spiritsinger combat (correct me if I'm wrong here, as I'm not too knowledgeable on the topic) is based around, on the most basic level, building up Wildarrane spirits on a target with CairnLargo, and then using your more powerful abilities that require that in order to delay the other person long enough to pull off a kill through one method or another. The proposed holy fire would be a resource built up similar to power, that is used for both offense and defense, but is also built so that you can't use both to their full capacity at the same time. Saving holy fire for defense makes it so that you aren't expending it to deliver extra afflictions with PrincessFarewell and RighteousPsalm, but you need to take advantage of both of those if you're going to build up enough afflictions to pull off a kill of some type. Essentially, it's based around the balance between offensive and defensive holy fire skills, and requires the bard to switch between utilizing one or the other based on the situation. Which is completely different than building up to CairnLargo effects, since you can have spirits on another person and still get the benefit of Wildarrane's offensive and defensive spirit-based abilities.

In the spirit of what Pesukaru said earlier, though, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, if I made an invalid point or that's not enough difference to differentiate the skills or something like that...

Well-spoken reply. However, if you're going to submit a special report, why not kill two birds with one stone and have the guild synergize with itself and Aquamancers by creating effects that grant freeze effects inside of your own skillset?

If you stick with the holy fire concept, I think it has a lot of merit. It feels like the scales-with-affliction market, while already cornered by Cacos, would also be interesting. The concept of harming ego also seems pretty solid. I think that with whatever system you go with, you need to really ensure that what the Admin does with it provides a cohesive, synergistic strategy or 'direction' for the class in combat. Just giving you new effects or tweaking numbers will leave you stranded holding the bag still - just the bag has different crap in it.

Another idea that came to me while thinking about this recently was that each Supernal should get a song, but I don't know how well it would work (or how it would work together). In retrospect, worrying about if something is copy of something isn't a prime concern, as it speaks less about a lack of creativity and more about the fact that the design you are taking after or looking towards for inspiration has good or at least working design elements. Perhaps a song for each Supernal and then a song that interacts with the effects of those songs (example: each one gives a set of afflictions, for instance, and then the 'final' song does.. something for each of those afflictions present, or something depending on how many of them 'stuck' - lost ego, or some such).

I'd put my comments in, but the Envoy Wiki is apparently hosted on Rorak's PC and I can never get it to load properly.

Fixed.

Why does every guild need to have something that builds? Spirits, burns, timewarp, insanity, holy flame... can't you just, you know, deal afflictions and damage? This holyflame idea seems entirely unnecessary and overcomplicated.

Because as long as we get to do a special report we should take advantage of it and get a neat, new, cool looking set of abilities.

On a more serious note... we can't just deal enough damage and afflictions to kill because we're bards and that would make us (more) amazing in group combat when we'd suddenly be able to deal enough passive damage and afflictions to overwhelm and kill several people at once. Either that, or make us not even slightly viable for single combat because, well... currently we deliver four afflictions per tic, but one of those (prone), doesn't take a curing balance to heal. So, we get essentially three afflictions per tic going towards weighing down an opponent just with sheer afflictions, and that's balanced in group combat. We're semi-effective, but not too overpowered (or you'd see people complaining and trying to nerf Starhymn). Three afflictions per tic, though, is laughable against a single person in 1v1 combat, especially when one of those is usually sunallergy or vomiting. You can't make us viable in both single combat and group combat unless you're going to do something -besides- giving us more ways to just "deal damage and afflictions", and that's one of the intents of the holy fire proposal - it'd be a mechanic that's functional in both single and group combat, because it gives us a way to deliver a few more afflictions to a single person, but its effect is minimized in group combat, leaving us with what we have in group combat that's already mostly functional. Suggestions on other ways to achieve this goal, though, would be appreciated if you don't like what's been proposed.

One last note, I've been considering another (and what I feel is a simpler, cleaner) way for the proposed ReverberantShield ability to work:
Proposal #3: When someone attacks the Cantor, the attacker will have a chance of taking 500 fire damage (before resists) and receiving an affliction from the following list: stupidity, vapors, confusion, and impatience. The chance of firing will increase based on the number of levels of holy fire - for attacks on one balance (minorsecond, cosmicfire, nature vines, two-handed warriors, etc.) it will be 10% per level, for a 50% chance to fire at max holy fire, for attacks on two balances (one-handed warriors), it will be 5% per level, for a 25% chance to fire at max holy fire, and for attacks on three balances (monk actions and psionics), it will be 3.33% per level, for a 16.67% chance at max holy fire.

(Numbers, of course, can be tinkered with if it's felt that's necessary for balance.)

And Rika... this is our complanin' thread. Get your own!

Just change recessional back to what it was.

First off, your evaluation of bards is flawed. Spiritsingers and Harbingers are the top tier bards, SS because of their incredibly potent passives and harbingers for their synergy with their own (and communes) offense.

You had alot of suggestions and I saw alot of "crusader" stuff, so congrats, you are making spirits 2.0?

That aside does anyone know what Cantors are made for? Hindering curing, your solo offense seems to suck because you can turn the entire battle in groups. If you want to trade that a bit sure, but don't just add to everything it isnt like your offense is limited to targets.

Your request for holy fire would mainly create chances to generate additional afflictions and damage with no work in the least to do so. We do not need spirits the sequel. Spirits were a mistake as it is.



You have a really nice aeon setup going to use with soulless and especially groups. Really easy for a skilled cantor to not only aeon someone but time it at a time it will do a ton of damage to curing. Blackout + stun + aeon and when they come out curing can fail. I suggest moving things back toward some damage, but require setup, for instance allow higher burst damage, as when you attack the damage boost fades anyway. Possibly make one of the "crap" songs increase damage against the person you hit with the burst for X seconds, or if that is too hard to balance for change some things to do afflictions or stronger afflictions to the person you hit with it. The above are useful in both solo and groups that way!

Just some thoughts, I am entirely up for helping if you want, I talked about it before the whole "cherub" theme thing came up.

P.S. A beast can take you to whole new heights as a Cantor, try using poisons with aeon themes, or hypnoticgaze with select skills for instance!

When has that ever worked for anyone in a reliable, fun and sustainable way, though?

Cure hindering synergizes with everyone, they all have that in common! It also has several things that synergize with themselves that they are not making use of. Where is Nezha when we needed?

In its current incarnation recessional is just amnesia cause if they fail to eat/sip they can just spam the action at it will go through. And it was supposed to read for it to consume the balance used instead of just herb balance.

P.S. I still hate the holy flame idea.... just like I told Nydekion when he suggested it

From my personal experience and what I know of bard skills, bards as an archetype in a 1v1 goes the auric routes (as Rika has repeatedly pointed out) mostly, doing anything else is usually more effort for less pay-off. In the meantime, bards are the classes within each of the 4 orgs that have them, that boosts synergy the most in the org itself. I can see both Harbingers and Cacophony as the top of the game in this group-effort thing. (lol, check it out, we're all claiming different specs at the top.) As a Glommer, I've always noticed more toadings and faster bleedouts when there's a bard around. They are my second favourite friend-fighter after our melders. There's been a distinct lack of caco fighters since loth went mage (sadface) but the only thing that can put me off bal longer than a caco+nihilist (the two ninja fighters I fight with just kill me outright, so no synergy there) would be badluck.

At any rate, after all that rambling, what I meant to say was simply, "I agree with Rodngar." about the way Cantors should be taken. Aurics are a solid strategy by themselves, and the little frustrating aspects of it are slowly being addressed (via the report Rika pointed out), so you can rely on that for 1v1 at least. What's left is to take Cantors the way of the buffer and synergizer.

Recessional is pleanty nasty already-- if we're giving cantors (who get aeon) a 0p, never-ending BatBane, can we get BatBane cheapened/lengthened?

When 'ranking' bard guilds, it's important to take into consideration group combat is extremely different from solo combat, for bards.

Solo combat (based on my difficulties in spars):

-Can kill reliably:
-Current Cantors (Pfarwell/Aeon/Pfifth/Soulless/Recessional)
-Harbingers (NightshadeBlues, bleeding, Manabarbs, Octave)

Has trouble converting skills into death:
- Cacophony (Aeon opens up a world of opportunity)
-Spiritsingers (Sure, they've got passives, but none of them give you a way to actually kill your opponent.)

Group Combat:
Powerful:
-Harbingers (NightshadeBlues+Swoop+Toad)
-Spiritsingers (Lots of hindering passives)
-Cacophony (Some mildly hindering passives that synergize)
Not so powerful:
-Cantors (Nothing going, in a group)

As we can see, this creates two very different lists. What does this mean for Cantors? IMO, it means that they need more group combat skills, while leaving the crux of a decent 1v1 strategy (Aeon/Pfarewell/Recessional/Soulless) in place.

What about Freeze in CairnLargo(?)? Theoretically, you can use Freeze+Aurics to kill people in 1v1.