Unknown2011-01-28 16:23:34
QUOTE ("Xenthos")
Sip bonus affects everything; influencing, PvP, PvE. Every time you sip. 5% chance of +150 damage in PvP only does not come even close to comparing.
QUOTE ("Sojiro")
First, think of all the things/ways we can get a sip bonus. You either have to be faeling/tae'dae/whatever, which has its...quirks, or you have to belong to a commune and take alchemy for the philosopher stone. There's no sip bonus artie, but if there were, it'd be worth at least 300 cr+. Transing alchemy equates to the same, and being faeling has its ups and downs. Generally, what I'm trying to say here is that having a sip bonus entails having to pay quite a sum in order to get the benefits and sometimes, it comes with some pretty hefty downsides. The construct costs 300 marble and 50k (at least ours did), which is positively chump change for any org. In short, they get a sip bonus for what pretty much amounts to nothing.
Now, on top of that, a sip bonus just helps in everything. Insert math about how over time, 7% more sip adds up here. It applies to both pvp and pve as well. Consider the other effects of the constructs. Seren has a slight chance for the foal to protect them, Glom has slight chance for the crow to attack things, Celest has mana regen which is capped, Halli and Gaudi have their own underwhelming effects. In comparison, what Mag has goes far and beyond what appears to be the intent of the admin: to have constructs that are neat in their own way, but should not be viewed as must haves. The only effect which seems to even come to close is Celest's, and having better mana regen is much, much more niche than a better sip and you don't actually die when you run out of mana.
Now, on top of that, a sip bonus just helps in everything. Insert math about how over time, 7% more sip adds up here. It applies to both pvp and pve as well. Consider the other effects of the constructs. Seren has a slight chance for the foal to protect them, Glom has slight chance for the crow to attack things, Celest has mana regen which is capped, Halli and Gaudi have their own underwhelming effects. In comparison, what Mag has goes far and beyond what appears to be the intent of the admin: to have constructs that are neat in their own way, but should not be viewed as must haves. The only effect which seems to even come to close is Celest's, and having better mana regen is much, much more niche than a better sip and you don't actually die when you run out of mana.
QUOTE ("Xenthos")
Three of them are pretty tame; two have, as one of their three non-DMP effects, a minor bonus for a specific sub-set of the organization (for the Black Nest, it's a whopping +15 carrion).
Those same two have as another of their effects a passive ability with a very, very low proc rate.
The final effect for those two is +1 movement on one, and a pull-from-the-skies effect for the other.
Then compare that to something that you can actively use to synergize with your guild skills (point for diseases), along with a sip bonus that improves PvP, bashing, influencing... any activity that involves sipping at all.
Those same two have as another of their effects a passive ability with a very, very low proc rate.
The final effect for those two is +1 movement on one, and a pull-from-the-skies effect for the other.
Then compare that to something that you can actively use to synergize with your guild skills (point for diseases), along with a sip bonus that improves PvP, bashing, influencing... any activity that involves sipping at all.
In conclusion, sip bonus is greater than the other things since it benefits almost every activity (bashing, pvp, influencing), and not just a subset of a subset of those activities. And you get it without any downsides, as Sojiro pointed out.
Now quit saying no one gave a valid argument - ignoring them doesn't mean they didn't happen.
Vadi2011-01-28 16:29:15
It's really funny how the whole race discussion involved the Mag forum brigade campaigning agains the faelings via sip bonus, yet now they are campaigning at making it seem ineffective.
Shows how selfish the positions are, with no interest to game balance. Nothing to see here. Stop ignoring the arguments and address them.
Shows how selfish the positions are, with no interest to game balance. Nothing to see here. Stop ignoring the arguments and address them.
Prav2011-01-28 16:48:26
I don't think it can really be argued that a level 1 sip bonus is somehow equal to a chance to prevent part of an attack. For reference:
Prevention
Shield of Absorption (500 credits): 15% chance to prevent an entire attack.
Total cost to mimic prevention: 500 credits
Sip bonus
Mayan Ring (500 credits): Level 1 sip bonus that applies to health only.
Ring of Noxtra (500 credits): Level 1 sip bonus that applies to mana only.
By logical extension (500 credits): Level 1 sip bonus that applies to ego only.
Total cost to mimic level 1 sip bonus to all sources: 1500 credits
Prevention
Shield of Absorption (500 credits): 15% chance to prevent an entire attack.
Total cost to mimic prevention: 500 credits
Sip bonus
Mayan Ring (500 credits): Level 1 sip bonus that applies to health only.
Ring of Noxtra (500 credits): Level 1 sip bonus that applies to mana only.
By logical extension (500 credits): Level 1 sip bonus that applies to ego only.
Total cost to mimic level 1 sip bonus to all sources: 1500 credits
Unknown2011-01-28 19:29:25
Yeah, I'm not sure where the 'NO ONE'S EXPLAINED WHY YOU THINK THIS' came from.
Isn't this unavoidable every time a new mechanic or conflict system is added? The fact is, when something new is introduced, someone has to do well at it, and time and time again, that someone (or org) tends to be the same someone/org that has historically done well. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Might as well complain that the sun shines too brightly every day.
QUOTE (Rainydays @ Jan 28 2011, 03:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is always a bit of an absurd statement. The complaints aren't about punishing a winning org, its about not compounding a mechanical advantage with a snowball effect.
It is a valid concern, from a practical standpoint. There's actually a disincentive to ever join a weaker org, one that keeps growing between domoths, aetherflares, villages, and general combat conditions. It was certainly a part of the factor for me bailing for a Trinity org. And if someone said to me that they wanted to start here, and ask where they should start, I'd push them at Glom- learn to fight behind the org sitting on the top of the pile for two years- and now, with the construct issue, have your org substantially more painful to raid than whoever you yourself are raiding, and don't sacrifice anything into the bargin. As opposed to generally losing fights and being on the wrong side of the above? If the balance of org power in Lusternia hadn't been nearly stagnant for RL years now, this would be somewhat moot. But we need to consider practical concerns like this.
It is a valid concern, from a practical standpoint. There's actually a disincentive to ever join a weaker org, one that keeps growing between domoths, aetherflares, villages, and general combat conditions. It was certainly a part of the factor for me bailing for a Trinity org. And if someone said to me that they wanted to start here, and ask where they should start, I'd push them at Glom- learn to fight behind the org sitting on the top of the pile for two years- and now, with the construct issue, have your org substantially more painful to raid than whoever you yourself are raiding, and don't sacrifice anything into the bargin. As opposed to generally losing fights and being on the wrong side of the above? If the balance of org power in Lusternia hadn't been nearly stagnant for RL years now, this would be somewhat moot. But we need to consider practical concerns like this.
Isn't this unavoidable every time a new mechanic or conflict system is added? The fact is, when something new is introduced, someone has to do well at it, and time and time again, that someone (or org) tends to be the same someone/org that has historically done well. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Might as well complain that the sun shines too brightly every day.
Unknown2011-01-28 20:18:34
I curse the Sun and my vitamin D deficiencies!
Ixion2011-01-28 20:49:51
QUOTE (Prav @ Jan 28 2011, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sip stuff
Right or wrong in your point, posting artifacts from other games doesn't hold much weight.
Unknown2011-01-28 20:53:32
But it sure does help put into perspective how 'valuable' sip bonuses are.
Ixion2011-01-28 20:56:26
I'd rather have carcer/mana regen than slam/sipbonus then again I'm a warrior so that makes more sense than for most.
So far, having tested ours, I think my personal favorite bonus was the 5 DMP, truly. Again, dmp is crap for city warrior trackers so many others would disagree with my preference.
So far, having tested ours, I think my personal favorite bonus was the 5 DMP, truly. Again, dmp is crap for city warrior trackers so many others would disagree with my preference.
Vadi2011-01-28 21:48:58
Yes well, I'd rather not have a skill that inferiourly duplicates an ent I have and a bonus that assists a skillset that I don't have. What about that?
(oh, and saving hundreds of credits off getting an extra level on sip arties would be absolutely wonderful.)
(oh, and saving hundreds of credits off getting an extra level on sip arties would be absolutely wonderful.)
Prav2011-01-28 21:49:37
QUOTE (Ixion @ Jan 28 2011, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So far, having tested ours, I think my personal favorite bonus was the 5 DMP, truly. Again, dmp is crap for city warrior trackers so many others would disagree with my preference.
I like the DMP, myself. The construct literally doubles my DMP.
Llandros2011-01-28 22:01:22
QUOTE (Vadi @ Jan 28 2011, 04:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes well, I'd rather not have a skill that inferiourly duplicates an ent I have and a bonus that assists a skillset that I don't have. What about that?
(oh, and saving hundreds of credits off getting an extra level on sip arties would be absolutely wonderful.)
(oh, and saving hundreds of credits off getting an extra level on sip arties would be absolutely wonderful.)
level one mana regen is a 300 credit artifact, you could move to celest.
Xenthos2011-01-28 22:10:26
QUOTE (Llandros @ Jan 28 2011, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
level one mana regen is a 300 credit artifact, you could move to celest.
Yet it doesn't give level 1 regen to health and ego at the same time (another 600 credits), whereas the sip bonus does all three.
Also, Sahmiam, I absolutely love that you state I haven't made any comparisons between them. They're all over the place in this thread (and the old one)! There were a couple quoted, which is nice, but all that tells me is that you are either not reading or intentionally ignoring points.
(Seriously, when do you know me NOT to make arguments with points and reasoning? If anything, I make too many!)
Prav2011-01-28 22:13:02
QUOTE (Ixion @ Jan 28 2011, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Right or wrong in your point, posting artifacts from other games doesn't hold much weight.
I think it's an apt comparison, considering most of the artifacts that are copied wholesale from Achaea carry the same exact price as they do in Achaea. See: Rune of Absorption, Changeling Cameo, Health/Mana/Ego artifacts, Magic Damage artifacts and so forth. That seems to imply that there is a similar - if not identical - valuation of artifact benefits.
Xenthos2011-01-28 22:16:29
QUOTE (Prav @ Jan 28 2011, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think it's an apt comparison, considering most of the artifacts that are copied wholesale from Achaea carry the same exact price as they do in Achaea. See: Rune of Absorption, Changeling Cameo, Health/Mana/Ego artifacts, Magic Damage artifacts and so forth. That seems to imply that there is a similar - if not identical - valuation of artifact benefits.
It would be modified downwards a little as the sip bonus is 7% here vs. 10% there. Even being generous though, that's still a minimum base of 300cr per.
More likely they would still sell for between 400-500, even at 7%.
Prav2011-01-28 22:23:24
QUOTE (Xenthos @ Jan 28 2011, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would be modified downwards a little as the sip bonus is 7% here vs. 10% there. Even being generous though, that's still a minimum base of 300cr per.
More likely they would still sell for between 400-500, even at 7%.
More likely they would still sell for between 400-500, even at 7%.
Yes, but it would also affect the speed at which people cure wounds. Having to sip less often because you sip for more means you can apply for wounds more often.
Edit: I guess what I'm saying is that it's easiest to just say X = X and Y = Y. Yes, there are some mitigating variables involving the value of sip between games, but, there are mitigating values involving the value of magic damage, race change, etc. in games as well and the artifact prices remain identical.
Vadi2011-01-28 23:12:17
QUOTE (Llandros @ Jan 28 2011, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
level one mana regen is a 300 credit artifact, you could move to celest.
Poor application of logic. I should move to Magnagora, and since I don't want to do either, this point is moot.
Sylphas2011-01-28 23:53:47
Nearest equivalent here is the Philosopher's Stone, even though it's been said it's just a sip boost and not an actual level of sipping. That comes to about what, 280cr?
Casilu2011-01-28 23:57:53
Faerie wings are 400
Bubble Pipe is 250
NERF
Bubble Pipe is 250
NERF
Eventru2011-01-29 01:16:04
QUOTE (Sylphas @ Jan 28 2011, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nearest equivalent here is the Philosopher's Stone, even though it's been said it's just a sip boost and not an actual level of sipping. That comes to about what, 280cr?
And is, IIRC, a fair bit more than twice Magnagora's construct.
Unknown2011-01-29 01:20:34
People (the same people who're arguing now that a +1 sip is "not big") used the "SIP BONUS IS BIG" argument to justify the downgrading of faelings. I laugh with mockery.