But org-tattoos weren't going to be different powers, so that wasn't a problem. They were going to be the same powers as other tattoos, but able to be inked by different people. They'd be fine -- they just needed some advantage to even up the disadvantages (like making it so, once the guild paid the exorbitant price to get one, it cost little or nothing to apply it -- perhaps with some limit to how often it could be applied) so there'd be some reason to use them. Hopefully, now that tattoos are so much better with the change to power imbuing, we'll be able to come back to this in a few weeks/months and get some ideas for ways to make guild tattoos work so the idea can be revived.

I've not really heard any compelling (or any at all) ideas towards org tattoos.

I'm ready to mark it off as an idea that didn't survive the design phase, personally.

We kind of stopped offering ideas since we haven't really figured out how this works, and what little people were venturing kept getting chopped down with "that's not how it works" before anything ever got going.

I'm not sure why you insist on being this way when they have said time and time again in this thread that on this subject, being snotty and abrasive just makes them not want to listen any more!

It's rather counter-productive.

You'd be better off just trying to offer ideas to change his mind instead of... this.

I thought it was clear how it works. I think we've been up front and straightforward:

• Guilds commission tattoos with bodypart, weight and power.
• Powers chosen from normal tattoo powers.
• Guild leaders can ink them (but not remove them).
• If you leave a guild, the guild tattoo(s) fade.
• Guild tattoos should be considered optional.
• Possibly we would have had a guild rank bonus for the first guild tattoo received.

I'm not sure why the above is so hard to understand! I also don't recall saying "that's not how it works"; rather, I think I repeatedly clarified and explained how it does work. Heck, for guilds who only want tats for RP, guilds could have 5 tattoos with 2 power each all on the wrist (that's like 1 DMP) which is hardly a huge sacrifice for maximizing tattoos.

If people are interested in offering suggestions, I would say that org tattoos must have a weight that counts towards total tattoo weight. Keep in mind that I still am strongly inclined towards the original (above) design. However, that doesn't mean you can't offer tweaks to the above or anything else. If I say that I don't like something, that doesn't mean I am chopping you down because that isn't how it works; rather, I am making a design call because that's what I do!

Here's my suggestion on guild tattoos:

1) Create a new bodypart for guild tattoos, and limit only for guild tattoos: normal tattoos cannot go there.

2) Limit the weight to whatever you want. 50? 100? Up to you. 50 would make it only be able to hold something minor and not really important, like elemental, or half the full effect of a dmp/buff on a damagetype the receiver hasn't gotten (there are 9 types, and only up to 7.5 slots available for use normally). Editted to add: Alternative limit it to 10 or 20 and you'll limit it to divinetattoos or very tiny dmp/buffs, literally stuff people can live without, and won't even bother changing their personal sets to suit, so you can even keep the power-in-design-phase mechanic.

3) Depending on point (2), you can ALSO divorce power from the guild tattoo design. If you limit it to a smaller number, you're essentially limiting which power goes on it anyway, and you can please everyone by letting them choose what (minor) power they want on it so they don't have to design their personal sets around it. This is optional though, if the benefit it gives is not as much anyway, then there's little danger of getting people unhappy that they are getting redundant powers, because even if it weren't redundant to their personal set, it would stll have little benefit.

What my suggestions are aimed at is maintaining the huge cost of guild tattoos (guilds will probably take only 1 as the "emblem" for their guild, or as a reward for their elite) while sidestepping all the frustrations of having to "design around it" by both ensuring it doesn't interfere with normal tattoos as well as limiting the maximum potential. In effect, it's exactly what it was envisaged to be: an RP device with minor perks (less than normal tattoos, even). Richer guilds can buy multiple tattoos, and ink them for different advancement paths or whatever, etc. Everyone has a single slot for a guild tattoo that doesn't affect where they put their own private tattoos. If they don't want a guild tattoo, they can say no without feeling they are cheating themselves out of a buff (this is dependant on guild tattoos being limited in weight). Win-win.

I actually like that idea, of a guild tattoo being able to go one place and one place only (not competing with other tattoos); guilds could design them with different weights so as to allow Eventru's whole 'branching' idea (of having the tattoo be added to over time) as you put multiple tattoos in an area, or guilds could design many different tattoos with different powers that a person would be able to pick from.

The real question is; what body part would they claim that would make sense and not compete with other tattoos?

There's been a couple of suggestions in this thread already (or was it in a clan where people were joking? Can't remember.) Shoulders, knees, elbows, ears, foreheads. Whichever. It's easy to make something up, give it a name.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of a body part just for guilds. I'd rather it be more flexible, especially if we ever want to expand the skill beyond guilds. Besides, why would all guilds choose the same body spot?

So that their members don't have to choose between guild tattoos and their own sets; one of those 'necessary compromises' that would be a separation between 'reality' and what we experience as a game world.

I understand that's not the most compelling reason from a designer's standpoint, but from a player's end I don't think you'll see many of us complaining that one area is for guild tattoos! Especially if it's a relatively small area (as Lerad suggested, 50 weight at most on this).

Why not just say arms then?

That's a good point. Alternatively, you could let them name the bodypart, and just limit the weight, but that goes into the danger of too much customisation, etc etc. It'll eventually get to the point of "why not just write it into your desc" that Eventru raised, especially org tattoos, unlike main tattoos, don't have armour stuff and are not meant to give important perks, and are mainly an rp perk.

The main thrust of my suggestion is just that the guild tattoo is seperated from the normal tattoo 759 weight limit, just like what other people have said in this thread already, basically, and I chose to go the simple route of hard hammering out a single bodypart for that. Not a very elegant solution, for sure. Just chipping in and contributing what I can personally add, naybe other people can come up with something better.

edit: this post was for the previous estarra post, not the latest.

Assuming organizational tattoos DO count towards armour, what are your suggestions?

I think that the problem with that choice is that arms are a public area as well, so then you have the competition of deciding between public or guild and the whole 'headache' that they are all talking about.

I personally didn't mind the original concept, I'd have probably gone for a couple of hundred-weight chest and back sets for the Ebonguard. But if we're trying to address the complaints that have been brought up, having them divorced from the 'standard' areas appears to be rather important.

Divorcing them from the tattoo system will probably be a non-starter. How about ideas that work with the current design?

I get the feeling that the problem with that idea is the word 'minor'.

Sorry, absolutely not.

EDIT: BTW, that is so not a minor change that I can't tell you!

See, I liked your original idea. Then again, I am a guild leader so I could design sets and then work my own personal tattoos around them (as well as talking with my guildmates so we're all on the same page). That likely affects my stance a little bit.

The idea in my post seems to be the one that others are angling for (or at least, one that would address their concerns).

If org tattoos count toward armour, then they HAVE to be in the 759 normal limit, because it is unfair (or unbalancing) for monks using it as armour otherwise. This makes them literally a normal tattoo. This goes back to all those problems already raised: people want their own private sets, people want their own powers, people want to use the full 759 weights, people want etc etc. If you divorce power from the design at this point, the org tattoos literally become normal tattoos, and there's absolutely no way a guild will shell out so much for an org tattoo when they can just request a slot normally from their local cartel (and run the risk of the receiver getting away with their tattoos when they quit), so that's not even a possible option.

Basically, if org tattoos count toward armour, then we're back in square 1 and better off deleting the skill, really.