Yeah and that summons the "Was there ever meant to be more than one forest?" train of thought. If you follow it further questions about ackleberry and jojobos terrain types raise.

Also some of the changes to Faethorn were as a result of sucky rp for Glomdoring.



This is true, but at the same time these are supposed to be the generic skills available to all members of an archetype, totems is similar but not that bad because, now, it is not uncommon for secondaries to be shared with other archetypes. The main reason for splitting nature is to bring wiccans and druids in-line with the other archetypes, so that their guild defining skill is the spec of that base skill.



This was changed from memory, originally the fae were forced against their will to serve the SD from memory but this was changed and the Tah'vrai introduced, it is their duty to serve the Shadowdancers, taking a fae to Moon when they are supposed to go and serve Night is kinda bad from an rp neutral stance. In summary, the impression I get now is that serving Night is not actually against the will of the Fae in question unless they want to remain in Faethorn or go to Moon.

My meaning from the quote in the bolded was that even if they started off with a single complete druidic skill, druidry, over time this could be expected to have diverted more apparently into HS druidry and BT druidry.




It's along the lines of...
If faethorn is the one directing the defenses and empowering the forests, then they are more likely to use the same tactics across the board. But, over time you'd expect that the forests would develop their own flavour. That they have not feels like they are still using the powers that faethorn would be directing. Perhaps we simply have different interpretations, when I think of Serenwilde and when I think of Glomdoring even if you label both of them forests they generate remarkably different mental images that make the bolded seem almost the same as saying that Hallifax and Gaudiguch are the same because they are both cities.


Is exactly what is being asked for...



Thinking about the fae in faethorn always being the same ones actually feels really weird, just because their service to Night or Moon would only last about a day from memory. If you take the pov that such is a mechanical perspective and the rp is that when they go to Night or Moon they serve for x days or months or years, then the ones sitting in faethorn are those who have completed their duty and are about to move onto their next term of service. So those ~30 fae are all that are in faethorn but a hundred could be serving Moon and Night.

Also wicca is disappointing because we've heard about the grimalkin, bogies, hodekin, spriggans and squonks. Give them to Glomdoring with the banshee, make five of the current fae follow Moon only with a new fae. Moondancers can take a stance that they don't summon them because they are perversions and so on, while Glomdoring values their strength over the weak fae that serve the Serenwilde.

But by the point that you've gone that far you've made about half the skill exclusive to either side, ignoring abilities that need to be shared regardless (faecloak, faereturn, faeconverge, channels) and this is before any expansions on other abilities unique to wiccans.

Wiccans respectively are devoted to Night and Moon -- a study of astrology, tracking the celestial bodies including the moon (affinity for one) and sun (nemesis for the other) across the night sky, makes perfect sense to me.

Their respective spiritual powers are found in the Night and Moon skills. Wicca in terms of this game applies to the affinity for nature and the fae. Wiccans are not just a commune version of guardians. They are a different archetype entirely. Yes, they share skills, but that is what gives them their unique position in the communes. They are intended to be the spiritual leaders - sharing affinity for nature with druids, and specific affinity for the spirits with the warriors, being the central figure that unites the other two in purpose and identity.

The idea of divorcing wiccans from the nature skill is very weird to me. I'll admit that it contains some abilities that seem more suited to druids (growth, planting), but these are also among the things that remind someone playing a wiccan of where their power comes from, their connection to nature, the tangible aspect of their commune (the forest), and its connection to the Tree of Trees.


From the role-play perspective of the SD, all fae have a duty to serve Mother Night. All fae want to be dutiful, because fae are good, therefore, all fae want to serve Mother Night. Anything they may say to the contrary is just addled rambling brought on by heady narcotic that is the scent of the moonflower. That's just how they see it!


No. Serenwilde and Glomdoring exist in a perpetual state of brutal sibling rivalry but they are absolutely bonded through their shared connections to the Tree of Trees, the ethereal plane, the fae, and nature in general - and the cities have no parallels of shared concern and reverence, their cosmic planes being wholly unconnected, simply pockets that happen to exist on the same plane. Serenwilde believes the corruption of the Gloriana is a blight - that the Wyrd is further evidence of that same corruption. Glomdoring believes that the Wyrd is proof of nature's power to adapt and ultimately reclaim all land. This difference of opinion does not ultimately change the fact that both communes have the utmost respect for nature, that both yield to Maeve and strive to protect the shared Ethereal Plane.

Cut down to brass tacks, the concerns of Glomdoring and Serenwilde are incredibly similar. There have been a number of events where these shared concerns have caused Seren and Glom to work together and the basis is always these shared interests. Contrary to other games I've played when mortal enemies must work together in times of peril, this situation has never felt tedious or contrived here, because of these underlying similarities.


Right -- but it's also been made plain that those fae were deemed harmful and unstable. They served their purpose in the taint wars but they were forced creations and ultimately have no place in the natural world, which is why they aren't in it.

Wrong

Banshees, Redcaps, Barghest and Slaugh.



Glomdorings three commune specific fae are Manteekans creations. Unless you are admitting that Glomdoring is unnatural...

edit: This is why i suggested Glomdoring would use them... because they're already using almost half of them. That Serenwilde still uses the Banshee is a tad awkward...

I have interpreted that as the fae who are present are alright, and those who are not were indeed "too unstable to exist outside of war."
Edit to your edit --- It's only awkward if you presume that everything Manteekan created was "bad". I prefer to interpret it as a rush job on the creating, owing to urgent need, with mixed results.

What an interesting discussion, which would be more interesting to see carried out in some form in-game (books, what have you).

I note that nothing says definitively that redcaps etc were 'salvaged' - the only fae that it's safe to assume that with are banshees and icebourne. So it's certainly something open to debate!

That Maeve is using them seems to indicate that they have become part of her. Also the war wasn't won, the elders were either destroyed, fled or sharded. If they felt that those fae were required to defend the forests then it seems unlikely that while the war was still raging they would take the time to detach them from the Maeve conciousness and actually weaken the defences they felt were so vital.

To your edit: The Banshee are tools crafted by one of the traitors, if he were in game his alliance would likely be with Glomdoring. Your edit seems the Glomdoring point of view, Serenwilde seems more likely to view them... less kindly, it's kinda weird using fae that were specifically crafted by someone you find repellant.

To Saran's most recent post, I feel obliged to point out, from his own quote:

"The Maeve Collective resisted assimilating them but they did seem to help repel the Soulless attacks. I felt a wave of these creations, the banshee, grimalkin, redcaps, and bogies swarm throughout the Serynwodenhillirim."

So she was fully capable of utilizing them without actually drawing them in. An argument can be made that the only "tainted" fae involved with Maeve were those brought in via Night, when Glomdoring awoke (shortly after its founding as an org) - which lead to her perceived issues after that point.

Just to intercept in on this little conversation of why some of Manteekan's creations are being utilized - the explanation comes from the Wydyr quest involved the Dowager Shee-Slaugh, if I'm remembering correctly. The reason the redcaps, barghests and slaughs are around is because Night was able to salvage/transform them to some form of stability as opposed to the others which I'm assuming haven't been by any other Great Spirit.

Shoving the other fae into the Glomdoring-side of wicca would indicate unravelling this bit of history to include these fae other than the three that Night chose to give a second chance/transform, so that might hit a snag in actual implementation.

Mind, I'm kinda tired, so I hope this little ramble made sense.

It would depend on whether she successfully resisted the assimilation or not. (Resisting Arrest doesn't mean you are any less arrested for example)

She may not have liked it, she may not have wanted it, but that doesn't mean that they didn't become part of her and it actually makes the entire thing more abhorrent. She appears to be shown using all of the mentioned fae, the argument would then fall to whether or not she is able to use fae to defend the forests without assimilating them.

Yeah, i would expect that there would be some explanation such as Night continuing what she has already done to bring greater power to the wyrd. Casting off the weak and unworthy.

The statement is pretty clear - she's resisting assimilating them (therefore has not - at least, not at the time of the telling) while fully utilizing them. Given that Maeve's perceived "personality issues" did not come until after tainted spirits were forced on her by Night, and that has always been the explanation for her torn nature, I think it's pretty safe to make a solid argument against assimilation.

And all the Dowager's quest says is that Night would try to oversee their rehabilitation (probably in Wydyr! Which Maeve cut off when the Taint hit). My, all the uncertainty.

Like I said - you should write a book on the topic (all of you!). I'm sure we'd be tickled to see the opposing arguments.

Well there is little point isn't there, unless you are now going to state that your statements are just your interpretations of the text and are not actually fact. No offence I just remember that whole thing about a Lisaera stating the Elfenehoala awoke Night... ic no less from what I heard.

I could go on, but if you are going to argue right and wrong over interpretation then there is no point. If you aren't going to confirm that it is your interpretation then there seems little point to write books because it will be assumed as fact and they will be marked down for not adhering to it

You can have such a negative attitude sometimes, it really makes me not want to respond to you at all. This really goes for anyone, stop being so pessimistic. No offence, but it's a real downer!

Yes - It is only my interpretation that 'resisting,' to me, means that one has not done whatever it is they're resisting doing. As I said, I can only speak to what is plainly written - everything else is conjecture. All I can offer are points and conclusions that can be drawn from them - since several of you are arguing the opposing point (and I generally found your arguments to be flawed, by sections you yourself quoted), I was merely pointing out the opposing side.

I rarely state anything as certain, and my encouragement to see dissenting books on both sides of the argument written should be taken as 'there is no right answer' - at least, as far as you know. For all you know, Night broke out some of the corrupt fae from Wydyr - or that they all along were part of Night. You could argue that 'resisting' means 'she's assimilated them and is too lazy/busy to cut them off (which I think most moondancers know - or at least knew - such could not be done, Albion having likened it to 'separating the brain from the body')', or even 'she was resisting at some point during the Elder Wars but she eventually absorbed them' - though at that point, I'd suggest finding an argument as to why Maeve wasn't put to sleep with them (since, as we see with Night, she can be readily influenced by those that compose her (duh!). There's certainly some that come to mind.

'You could argue any number of points that are not definitively stated - and the best I can offer you is my interpretation, which is offered solely to help you better refine your argument, to make you think about your points, counter-points and counter-arguments, and better be able to defend them. I have a big head about writing - I'm told I'm a fairly strong essayist - and I always enjoy argument papers. The better defended and written, the better for everyone, I think!



The good news, though, is that it's all terribly off-topic from the purpose of the thread, so I'll withdraw from the digression altogether.

Wicca and Druidry sharing nature as a base skill is actually something that makes a whole lotta sense and changing that would be pretty awkward. See, there are three skills that come from Planar. Nature, Elementalism and Cosmic. Mages and Guardians have distinct primary skills because they're studying different base-planes. Druids and Wicca do not. They all share a study of the same basic plane, which then splits of into different directions. And Nature itself isn't that bad. Sure, it is a bit lame, and some of the abilities are very highly specialized, but at least it doesn't have half its abilities available to everyone through enchantments.

What I can understand however is that the specializations aren't distinct enough. There really isn't that much distinction between the various Wicca and Druidry abilities, or between Wicca themselves. There are four unique skills between Seren-Wicca and Glom-Wicca, and one of those is a quest fae. So the problem then is, if it wasn't for the totem specs, Seren-Wicca and Glom-Wicca would be virtually identical. So while for mages, you have people who want to control the waves or make enormous flames, while for druids, the difference is if you use crows or squirrels.

So. Create more distictions within the actual skills themselves. Changing the name or splitting the primary won't do much.

I think Talan and Gleip said it best.




I don't know if any wiccans/druids would want to go away from nature/totems? It seems very natural that they're shared, and it would be very awkward (destructive?) to move away from that.

I love playing a druid - more for the combat side of it these days. It just took me forever to realise I could kill people on my own and that I wasn't doomed to be only a support person. Sure, Crow/Stag and Druidry could use some work to make them more unique to their respective guilds, and to make combat in your guildmate's meld (and outside melds in general) more viable, but the skillsets aren't terrible. They need a lot of love to make people interested in them (we have maybe six active combatants between HS and BT), but they're not terrible.

I'm not a fan of introducing huge changes to druids/wiccans at this point. We should focus on improving what we have, and suggesting more flavourful changes (ala report 610). Reports like 602 will only make the skillsets more generic as they mimic skills that city/other commune guilds have.

I stopped reading halfway through the second page. But if you so truly in your inner being feel like the guilds need bigger separation via skills - come up with a full skillset of balanced, flavorful skills that also follow established lore. Its easy to just say "make them", (which I saw somewhere in the thread) but I doubt its as easy to do in practice.

As a tangent, I'd really like to see Wicca actually impact Wiccan combat more.

I think now would be a good time to point out that my post back on page 2 was a great big thing in favour of wiccans and druids sharing the nature skillset and an explaination of why that makes sense. Anyone reading arguments that wiccans should be given their own base skillset for wicca into that is misunderstanding me.

Further, it doesn't really matter that if the Maeve successfully rehabilitated the grimalkin or whatever. If you want to introduce some of mantekin's fae as new fae unique to Night specialization, then you can have an IG event where Night rehabilitates them in modern times. And you can do the same thing with whatever fae you decide that Moon wicca should be getting, or by introducing new fae that aren't corrupt but which never ended up getting used in modern times. Or you can have Lisaera come back for a while and just straight up create some new Moon fae, just like back in the days before the Elder Wars. Arguing about history in this case is just silly, since neither side of the argument rules out the introduction of new fae.

Likewise for druidry. You could easily do a thing where Glomdoring incorperates animated ravenwoods into their demense and Serenwilde learns to use the power of poisonous tree frogs. Or any other set of interesting looking natural objects found or imported into the relevant forest.

Start with an idea that would be flavourful, or a skill that would be useful and then backform a justification for how the appropriate guild figures out how to use it from there.

When this was brought up before it was pointed out that nihilism and celestialism are the same exact skills with minor variations just like moondancers and shadowdancers and wicca with the variations and style coming from sacraments and necromancy and moon and night. Bards monks and mages are the same exact way ..... Heck look at bards the ONLY skill they have that isn't shared with another guild is their music spec... Moondancers and shadowdancers and blacktalon and hartstone have more differences than bards