Nihilism and Celestialism are more varied than Wicca and Wicca, last I checked.

Just popping in for this wee little snippet - I highly, highly disagree. As opposed to the bards who actually have a skillset of their own (Glamours), druids share absolutely everything. Hell, even the Druidry skills are exactly the same except for 3 or so things. Bard Music specs vary as widely as their orgs do - kill methods between the Spiritsingers and the Cantors are as far removed from each other as the warrior weapon specs are. Druids, on the other hand, rely on sap and are thus hobbled by it.

Just wanted to point this discrepancy out for the wee (not so) little mistake that it is. -toddle back to obscurity-

Druids share totems splitting at spec and druidry which varies based upon totem spec and terts.

Bards share music splitting at spec and acrobatics and terts. If we liken glamours to druidry, there are not any differences in glamours between the bard guilds. Bards have one skill and one skill only that makes them different from the other bard guilds and that is the music spec.

Different names, same functions. Only three (or four) skills are different between the two.

Apart from the whole wyrdr lovers thing, part of the folklore of the Starleaf family actually involves a misunderstanding over whether a fae that is one of our ancestors was a banshee or one of the 'dark fae' (most likely referring to slaugh, as redcaps are male). So if banshees were made Shadowdancer-only because they were Mantakeen-made, the entire argument that our bloodline is not tainted because banshees were able to be salvaged goes away - in which case we either need to get hold of Daxi and make her do a re-write of A Guide to the House of Starleaf; or we'll have to acknowledge our blood is tainted, and that the pride we have in our formerly persecuted name is misplaced.

(This is not intended to be an argument against making banshees Shadowdancers-only. It is just me pointing out that people have noted the odd status of banshees and actually used that lore in at least one book.)

I feel like we're circling around the same topic for some reason but seem to be determined to try and point out which of the two archetypes between bards and druids find themselves in more of a disadvantage/is possessing of more difference than the other. It is indeed true that bards share everything else besides their Music specialization, but this little fact alone gives them more headway for change and differentiation than druids do. Considering druids share everything (and I do mean everything), changing something in any of the druid's skillsets is bound to have an effect in another guild - even if trying the little loophole jumping the envoy process has to go through, a corresponding skill is bound to crop up later to make up for anything new introduced for druids, thereby perpetuating the sameness in the archetype across the guilds.

I can see your point about making changes to skills since each skill is shared by another guild, the arguments I was reading were more so about the "uniqueness" of a guild than about balancing them.

I do not feel that Bards are more similar than Druids. Bards have unique and distinct primary skillsets (the focus of the class, allowing each guild to achieve different kill conditions and somewhat different roles in combat) whereas Druids share their primary and the only difference is in Crow / Stag (both of which still feel quite flat, especially when one looks at things like HolyLight, CrystalWeapons, Symbols, Pathways, etc).

More flavour for Crow / Stag please, relating to the Aspects! And do something else with those Dark Spirits too, they are sadly underdeveloped.

Think if we give suggestions for flavour, then add a mechanical reason, we're more likely to see progress. This isn't directed towards you Xenthos, just.. in general to the thread (I just like your quote better than most of the others).

Tried that already! Report 563!

Anyways, I think that the best bet for now is to gather up lots of ideas for each thing, defining possible skills to be added/replaced in each skillset, along with a general theme. That way, you can either petition for a big change all at once, or try and get your theme thumbs-upped by the admins and slowly make the changes if possible.

Had a loooong talk with some people about ideas for Stag yesterday (or was it the day before?), if you've got ideas or want to know what I've got already, PM or message me IG!

Gogogo Sap! Yes, it's pathetic. Yes, it prevents any real fix to the horrendous druid mesne. Yes, it's pretty much what defines druids. Yes, it will never change, suckers. Same applies to the cut-paste nature of druidry as a whole. Yes, "But It's Good in Group" is a philosophy, and no excuse. However, it doesn't matter how boring, broken or cloned it is. You've been told it's fine, so suck it up and live with it, or come up with a stealthy enough way to utterly kill sap without anyone guiding 'The Vision' realizing it until it's settled in. Maybe then you might actually be able to get both variety and the ability to kill someone, rather than just annoy them until your allies can take them down (or for Crow users, until your allies weaken them enough that you can insta), with a druidmesne synergizing with your other skills. Especially given the current complete lack of synergy with anything else in their arsenal (this is even worse for Stag users, whose instakill is even less viable than Crow's).

But seriously, call me a cynic, but nothing's going to change until 'The Vision' changes.

Gore is almost an impale that might accidentally kill someone, instead of an instakill with a backup plan.

If they're below 25% health, they're dead anyway <.< What's the point of an insta that only does the last 25%? I dunno... just seems kinda... very poorly thought out... to me at least

The gore instakill probably exists for the sake of the awsome feeling you get when you accidentally pull it off.

It's 33% actually.

I'd be happy if at least my cudgel was different from Blacktalon's. And if I wasn't shooting people with splinters.

Stormhammer4druids. I wouldn't mind hitting three times at three different targets even if it were weaker.

That or some other way to get the same mechanic in. -nod me-

I want a void staff then.

No, it's 25%. Was nerfed years ago, I think.

It'd still be retar... poorly thought out... if it were 50%. If you can make that sort of progress on HP, you can just outright kill the sucker.

50% instakills see plenty of use in other games.