I recently received an email of someone complaining that there is a lot of griefing of players (including newbies). I won't go into what players or what organizations were mentioned, but I would like to gauge as a general matter what people think? Is there more griefing going on now than in the past? If so, has it gotten to the point where the admin should step in or otherwise get involved?

Please be civil! I will be monitoring this thread.

I can't say that I've really noticed any griefing, either on behalf of an org or a single person. I know Krellan sometimes goes on sprees of attacking non-coms or non-enemies but I haven't really noticed that to be frequent enough to be considered griefing, and I haven't seen him hit up any newbies. That's just what I've observed, however.

Not necessary, I think the same amount of noncoms have always been attacked compared to the past. If we're talking about org griefing, I don't really think it's gotten that bad, but you have to keep in mind that it's a conflict game and conflict has to happen. There are numerous ways to ICly reduce or even prevent the attacks, so I think it's up to the players to pursue this avenue.

Knowing the 'griefers' mentioned, they've almost always been exclusively attacked in dangerous areas like non-prime, which you've said before are meant to be risky since the Avenger doesn't watch there.

It's more of a chronic thing that flares up now and then rather than a persistent issue. I would say things were considerably worse a month or two ago, but we do still have people going after people for no apparent reason and/or people who "do it for the lulz." Part of the problem, I'm sure, is that vicious cycle of "well, if you can do it, so can we," where any action is justifiable.

There are definitely certain repeat offenders that could always be monitored, in my opinion.

Also, by newbie, are you saying not-ranked 16 year old guys fresh out of the portal, or just noncoms? Because most, if not all the people jumped and killed that I've personally seen are either established players or noncoms (ranked players who don't really fight and may not even be enemied to org X, but they're definitely not newbies)

There's also the opportunistic hitters who hit the orgs not at the same level as the established governments, but that's been raised enough times that people expect the reply that they need to just wait and endure it until they get their own bard and monk guilds to get their guards.

Once the time comes that those are released though, I'd think that this example would fizzle out eventually.

Hey, I thought we weren't naming names.

I think Est said she wasn't naming names. And I said you weren't griefing! I was am protecting you from later allegations by outright saying you're innocent up front

Surprisingly, even I don't think it's any worse now than it has been recently. The only thing I can think of is Faethorn, where if you go there, you are pretty much guaranteed to be attacked. It is much more troubling on an IC level than an OOC one though. The Forests used to respect the wishes of the Maeve and not treat Faethorn like a battle zone, but not anymore. But, like I said, that is an IC thing, not related to griefing.

EDIT: And there will always be people who will do things for the lulz. Usually they flare up, then go away, flare up, go away. Are we in a flare? Maybe. I can think of maybe two or three right now that could qualify (and one who should be removed altogether, but that's neither here nor there), but I don't notice it much.

It seems worse to me recently but it's hard to tell if it means anything or if it's a flare up. Drives me nuts either way.



I think about 70% of the people reading this would've assumed you were involved anyway.

I haven't been here for years like everyone else and I'm also basically a newb, not really a returning player so I do not have the benefit of precedent to fall back on.

Here is what I do know, in no particular order. I have been killed repeatedly since level 30. In many cases there are still areas of the game I do not know or am still discovering. This is so frustrating sometimes its not even funny. Now you can tell me that maybe my city should warn me about dangerous places to go, as one person did when I complained IC. And I accepted that at the time and still accept that. But that's kind of the tip of the iceberg

More disturbing, I have had 3 novices/non-comms newer than me, at least as far as I know, tell me they were leaving after being killed one too many times, stating that isn't something they enjoy. If they wanted to PK, they'd go to a game that required it. Now I've been playing for just shy of 6 months. Thats one person hearing about one player being lost about every two months. And thats only the ones I hear about, not including the ones that just disappear. Thats a huge hemmorage.

The real trouble I see is there is a large portion of the player base that is very frustrated right now with basically being "farmed" for honour-kills. I don't think it would be so bad if there weren't a strange conflux of events that make that possible. (I am really trying not to get so specific I blame it on any one person or org.) The end result is problematic though. At least once a day I get a message or an OOC tell about how frustrating this is and how little fun Lusternia has become for person X. And its generally a different person every day.

So I fall firmly into the camp of some things have to change. It may not need to be a huge change or be really jarring to the people who enjoy PK, but there are a good number of people in the game who don't enjoy PK or being PK'ed or combat in general. And if we lose them the player base goes way down. The example I like to think of is in any major market MMO there are 5 "safe" servers to every PK server give or take. That tells you something about the way most people like to play.

Right now though, it is very easy to run afoul of the wrong person and end up getting killed over and over and not really know why. Trust me. I've done it. And it can be really frustrating, and I'm not sure "Oh well the planes are inherently risky" is enough anymore. The planes are a huge part of the game. And when you get ganked as a level 50 on Earth doing power quests...it does kind of bum you out. Have that happen to you often enough and burnout is almost inevitable.

But hey, thats just my opinion, i could be wrong.

I killed you once on Earth. Don't go to off-Prime places if you can't defend yourself from enemies... ? Or bring friends to defend you?

I can understand being jumped for influencing fae in Faethorn. But when I get jumped just for taking a novice to Faethorn/Elemental for their planar quest, that is a problem. I could stop helping them, but I don't want to do that. The last novice I helped was very upset when I nearly died just for helping them. And, just saying, I haven't seen them in Lusternia again.

I can't blame the people who kill opprotunistically. It's human nature. Give someone the ability to do so reliably and without repercussion and will happen. This is a universal constant of all games. Against most 'griefing' attempts, simply walking away will work. However there are some where it simply isn't possible. The solution is to render the 'no-escape' gank impossible. If someone wants to stand and fight, that should be their choice. Non-comms should always be able to run. Right now they can't due to a portion of the player base simply acting on human nature, given the resources available to them. Fix the issue that allows the near total prevention of escape on certain parts by non-comms and experienced combatants alike, rather than reducing the overall enjoyment of those of us who enjoy combat at times.

My 2gp.

Actually, I would say griefing has suddenly spiked up. I blame House of Blood (giving justification to players, and even ENCOURAGING THEM to grief), and people with guaranteed-kill combos and no risk, and the lack of maturity to allow people to play a game the way they would like to rather than being fodder for their deflated egos.

It's not just off-prime, because I've seen tons of deaths just yesterday happening ON PRIME, and NOT in enemy territory. By the same group of offenders. One individual was chased across the Grey Moors (unenemied territory) for having stepped 2 seconds into a village...and the village did not even belong to the pursuers. In one instance, to avert Avenger, an offender told to their party to handle the kill since they've already killed the victim. These are people who do nothing with their time but bring grief to whoever they can find. 'Roaming gank squads' I think is the term applied to them. Faethorn in particular is dangerous, because individuals like Alacardael and Krellan will attack any novice or noncom on sight.

Krellan's particularly infantile attitude in the forums is likely based off impunity - he knows the administration won't bother doing anything about it.

I have accepted that the administration likely don't realize how flawed their envoy system is, and have taken the empty promises of change to be just that - empty. The recent blow to warriors because of Glomdoring support to have the pliers at 1500 credits (when putting runes on a different weapon by trading them in costs 1050 credits) is one thing that has had me seriously consider cancelling my Iron Elite membership, and the lack of change to choke (something that was promised in November of 2010, and still has not occurred) is making me think doubly hard on this.

I know that _I_ personally am not safe anywhere save prime Serenwilde, and I really don't discount the opposition from making attacks there. There's really no need for me to play in such a hostile environment when I could be working on more pleasurable things in my life.

I'm not sure that's an incredibly productive attitude. "Only play the game on prime unless you're sure you can fight off anyone who attacks you, or just go everywhere with a large group." Isn't really a stance to adopt. Just because off-prime is free PK doesn't mean that people should stop leaving prime if they aren't good combatants.

I know I'm going to sound simple, but I have trouble understanind why anyone would wander up and kill someone they've never met or heard of, who isn't an enemy, who is just minding their own business for any other reason than to be a villain.

Agree with others that I don't think there's not really more griefing going on currently than there has always been, and that cases of it can flare up from time to time. Like when certain completely relentless people start playing or become active again.

What bothers me is people who feel the need to gloat during or after. Or act damn proud of upsetting people. Is there really any point to that but to be antagonistic?

Where's the Like button? When responses to concerned emails boil down to either the run around, or tough cookies, suck it up, it discourages non-comms even further. (This is based on secondhand information someone recently spoke of.) I don't think this is an issue of the playerbase, and the playerbase shouldn't be punished for it. I know this is going to likely earn me a lot of heat, but I think the issue lies with 'the Vision' taking precedence over the needs of the players.

Yeah, gotta agree, Daedelion and Ethelon sneaking in to chop elders along with Teruells 6am Daughter raids have increased... If we start fingerpointing, then a lot of examples will come up. It's bearable to me so far (even with a sacgank this week!).