It's more that the attitude tends to carry over IC on her end, too. Lilian is one of those lightning-rod personalities.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you do have to be aware that it draws attention.

The people who say 'get over it, and move on' don't have to deal with choke+p5+insta ganking. Choke+anything really is typically enough, but choke+p5 pretty much makes leaving impossible. Meaning you are going to die and there isn't anything you can do to avoid it.

I mentioned previously that the envoy system is flawed. Necessary changes are often considered unnecessary and rejected outright. Or ignored completely (as with the Nov10 choke report.) I'm not certain why it is so difficult to render choke to be a simple aeon attack like moondance wane is. Just remove the power cost and shadows requirement, and tada. Shadows are still going to be used for brumetower, drink, steal, and others skills. If the ONLY reason people release shadows is to choke, I will call liar on them. If they firmly believe that, then that's evidence enough that this skill needs to be reviewed.

As for tethering - people who have attacked someone else will be flagged and cannot be tethered for something like a Lusternian day, and if they are currently tethered, it'll destroy that tether. Why give the griefers that protection? They don't deserve it. And I agree with it not working in enemy territory (which would prevent chopping/killing guards with impunity).

Divine Fire was mentioned before - I don't think guards should be spooked by divine fire. Have them ignore it.

Actually it's not different from IC when you interact with her, so nice try.

Has person Y raided Avatars? Yes.
Has person Y killed Daughters? Yes.
Is person Y enemied to Patron? Yes.

Not sure why this is about Choke. You will die with or without choke.

Yes, that was my main point that raiding has become so annoyingly difficult now that the alternative is much easier to get your PK on. I.E. that was the "way around the increased defence mechanics" that we found.

Introduce more mechanics to curb raiding and you'll really see a decline in activity. At least, imo. I have my own gripe about Blood Houses, since there's no deterrent for wanton pk but I can't say that's why any 'griefing' spiked. I wonder though, are people really dying all the time? Is dying so terrible? It seems so easy to get experience (aetherships) or to avoid combat altogether. Could just up the innocence period to a higher level. I still don't see a need for it.

Haha what? Glomdoring has nothing to do with the pliers and the situation regarding them is much preferable than paying 3k credits and having only a few people owning them. You so crazy.

It is impossible to farm a group of 30 or more guards with a small group. Stop exaggerating. I assure you, I know how many people it takes to kill guards and get out relatively safely.

The aether tether system will be so hilariously abused, I already have a few ideas on how to best...utilize it. For safety, of course.

And making it so you can always escape regardless of how many people you bring is just complaining. It has nothing to do with griefing, and honestly it's so easy to leave 1v1, it should be pretty clear tha this would happen.

Tbh, the big part of ganks is that raiding has become a bit too restrictive for a while now that people simply for lack of a better word, lash out in places where the odds aren't so bad. So that's godrealms, astral, neutral areas, enemy bashing territory, and places that'll can't be instantly locked down and gives us time to snipe people and leave.

What does (what boils down to) 'nerf raiding more' have to do with 'being griefed off-prime'?

I can barely see a connection between 'nerf choke in group combat' and 'soandso keeps jumping people whenever we leave our org!', and I somehow doubt that nerfing will fix any of the problems.

Somewhere 'griefing is a problem this is how I think it could be addressed' has become 'laundry list of complaints/conspiracy theories/that bastard killed my hamster/guards get grief way too much by someone soloing behind divinefire (okay well so I'm told - okay, well, it hasn't happened for a long time but it used to happen!)'.

You probably want to go back to the actual topic!

Choke is one major issue. Trample/crucify is another. Any ability that when paired with almost anything else means an instant end to escape is prime griefing fodder. Rather than make sweeping changes that will either prove insufficient, or screw one part of the playerbase at the expense of another. LISTEN TO THE ENVOYS. You created the system for a reason. Please.

@Eventru: The issue isn't with the skills, it's what they do. They prevent escape instantly, rather than giving a chance to get away right off the bat. Staying to fight -must- be a choice. Otherwise this will continue to happen indefinitely. Those skill combos mentioned? They've been issues for so long because of exactly this problem. Instawin without any hope of escape. That's how listening to your envoys will help resolve this issue through methods and channels you've -already- devised.

Don't forget the threats liberally strewn about on top of that.

*jump victim* *get owned* "Seems like I'm losing. Bye!" *activate choice*

I think it says something when eventru says 'this has nothing to do with griefing' imo.

They also require groups, though - groups that instead will just spam (web enchantments/some other cheap instakill/hindering) to land the kill. I would put money down that removing Choke and Crucify - not to say they should or should not be - from the game altogether would not change anything about the perceived griefing, except the tactics by which it is achieved. Unless, of course, we remove all hindering from the game. Which isn't a reasonable solution at all.

Edit: And please, don't take my comments as anything other than my opinion - I think some people are being a bit... Broad? with the brush that they're trying to paint the problem with. Let's not paint a house, let's paint a picture, so to speak.

Excuse me? I'm saying get over it, and for a while there I was getting jumped every single time I went to hunt, without fail. It did not matter what bubble I was on, what plane I was on. Illithoid, Cankermore, Crum, Muud, Astral, Prime, UV.

^This is why lockdown hinder should require building up to, rather than being instant. If you stay to fight, you should be able to be locked down. If you run immediately, you should be able to get away.

@Eventru: If you gave such methods of permanently locking down an opponent immediately a delay before coming up, and a clear warning message, similar to a timed instakill, but without the requisite for performing no other actions before they hit, might solve it. That's off the top of my head, and I'm likely missing a lot of the wider implications.

Again, to this I say bollocks.

If staying to fight must always be a choice, then you are giving the thumbs-up to people who spend 2, 3, or even more hours running around just kicking NPCs with no fear of ever dying or being caught. Because, well, they have the choice of not engaging in combat when a defender shows up! "Oh gee I don't want to stay and fight, so when a defender enters the room I'll move on to the next."

You're way over-reacting here and are just going to shoot yourself in the foot if you keep pushing for this / it goes in, because life is going to be miserable. For everyone.

You want a mechanical way to prevent griefing? Once an IC month, give players a way to call permanent grace that they can't drop until the next IC month. They won't die but they won't be able to participate in pvp as well.

P.S. You all pick your IG friends, so to speak

P.S.S. Give me your lunch credits.

Let's not be inflammatory, please.

Can we get a description of the original emailers perception of griefing? Obviously we've seen a lot of examples here, from org conflict via guard killing to ganks to combos in group fights and planar quests.