I would suggest altering the commune planar quests so that the Etherwilde/Etherglom of the commune has a higher point value, eliminating the need to go through Faethorn to get to Earth/Water. That would stop us needing to walk through Faethorn. It does mean we don't teach the novices much about Elemental planes, but we are communes after all.

Dude. This is the first time I've been posting in months on the forums that wasn't related to quotes or selling beasts. I think you're reasonable most of the time, but that's silly right there.

However, I don't believe that you should have had to purchase spectacles just to avoid being griefed. For those people who can't afford to throw money at Lusternia (myself included, though I have bought credits and will continue to do so in small amounts), the "Buy artifacts" thing is just... it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can appreciate that Lusternia needs to be commercial to some degree. I understand this and respect it.

You know what...Vadi...I'm going to spot you that one and restate.

I'm not a non-com. I'm a *terrible* com. I show up to try and help but mostly I make a pretty corpse.

The essence of my point is that it isn't all that hard to kill me or someone like me in a 4 v 1. Hell, just about every combatant can still kill me 1v1. (Granted I'm working on that.)

So yeah, its frustrating when I know that everyone knows that and I still get group-ganked. That just seems excessive. Its not like I'm dangerous.

Can we raise it so that Faethorn has a higher point thing too so I don't have to walk through Faethorn to go to Etherwilde/Etherglom?

Do you not remember that Facebook 'discussion' about a month and a half ago? That is what I am referring to on your part. 'Tis still a post, regardless of where it is.

Alright, since it's gotten to the point where it's one side taking one stance and the other side taking another to the point where it's becoming as aggressive as a religious debate in Texas, I'm just going to throw this out in the open.

The arguments are just perception. There may be a problem with a skill or group of skills, yes. One side will be against it, while the people who benefit from it usually will defend it. The problem with "griefing" is partially mechanical, yes, but the majority of the problem is with the minority who do so, and it's not just one organization. Members of all six organizations grief. When a game is centred around combat, this happens. Yes, certain skills are unbalanced and these unbalances are abused. This will happen in a game with a combat system.

To fix this, you will literally have to fix any combat inequality and basically sandbox combat. This method, however, will lead to combat not being fun at all which takes away a major factor of the game that is actually coded in. One of the things IRE is famous for is its complex combat system, and any form of sandboxing is going to overturn that. The only real solution to the mechanical problems is to fix the major outliers first and other problems as they come up.

Yes, choke is a powerful ability. Yes, when mixed with perfectfifth, it can entirely prevent escape. Yes, two against one will likely be deadly if you can't run or fight back. It is simple logic. Same with trample/sac. Same with how the Shofangi permaprone was. Same with how easily certain monks could pull off greenlocks. Same with three telepaths focusing on you. The only real solution to the mechanical problems is to adjust until it's not (as much of) a problem as it is now. And yes, balancing around group combat can make things horrendously weak in solo combat, but sometimes it does need to be done. However, it requires multiple adjustments consisting of both nerfs and occasional buffs to ensure the system is as balanced as it can be in its current incarnation, which is where I feel the envoy system lacks.

However, the main problem here is in the attitudes of players. Not just the "griefers", but those who are making the arguments against them. There is not one problem. There is a multitude of them. Focusing on one problem solves nothing. Complaining solves nothing. If you think something is a problem, propose a way to fix it. It is difficult, yes, but it is more useful in the long run.

As for admin policing and mechanical policing, it's necessary in some cases, but when taken to the levels being recommended in this thread (see: tethering, permagrace), it becomes more similar to the sandboxing above, which detracts from combat as a whole. Too much admin involvement will come with problems, as will too little.

There are a few ideas which may prevent some of the problems, but they will likely be too difficult or time consuming to implement. One idea is to expand Avenger to include other planes with more limitations and lesser involvement. For example... in -neutral- extraplanar territories(astral, faethorn when not aligned), allow two kills of a person to give them suspect. As little as avenger is used, this could be a possible way to curb this "griefing problem". However, with admin's previously expressed views about extending Avenger, I do not see this being implemented.

If an individual is being targetted too much by certain individuals despite this, it can still be problematic. But it is near impossible to fix the griefing without sandboxing the entire game, as said above. Currently, I would recommend the administration focus on major balance problems in skills, which despite the arguments in this thread, exist all over. It has been said by the administration that they rely on the envoy system to get their information. Listen to the envoys. If several prominent combatants and players point out a problem with a skill, it might be necessary to at least look into it, even without going through the envoy system. However, this can be time consuming to no end.

But I honestly do not see an end to what others are calling "griefing" very soon. In most combat games, there is some "overpowered" ability or combination. Compare this to choke and p5th in Lusternia, cleric firestorm and a wizard wall spell in Dungeons and Dragons fourth edition, or whatever. Combinations do exist, and they will never not exist. It is up to the players to choose to use or not use them. and should they be used, it is the players decision. If a player decides to run around and kill over 9000 people, that is their choice. The skills sometimes need to be adjusted. This is a fact. As for player actions, this is difficult, bordering on impossible to fix without removing what is possibly the essence of combat in Lusternia. The most that can be done is add minor regulation or mechanics to prevent the major statistical outliers ruining the experience for others, and even then, it will still happen.

Stop arguing with Xenthos, it doesn't work. He's got too much ego regeneration.

I say that I will to take breaks though, not outright leave (which I DO follow up on). Just like I'm taking a break now to rid myself of the anti-mojo that's been happening and the stress related to it. I really shouldn't be posting NOW, since I'm likely just going to be portrayed as the hippy who whines 'but they just don't GET IT, man!'

Just like Morbo's situation changed for the worse, I'm sure you can reverse it with some changes to make yourself happier and the game more enjoyable, without involving mechanics and administration.

I'm sure Morbo's situation could be resolved as well, but his organization is choosing to follow that path.

I'm really not seeing the point of complaining about organizational situations that you get into and that you have complete control over. I'd like to think that the original griefing issue is on a more personal level that is being done unjustly without any sorts of precedents or ways resolving them.

Aside to everything else, and knowing that I'm but one little voice among many... I am one who has quit an IRE game due to the frustrations of griefing and various types of harassment as a noncom. Granted this was many years ago as a young newcomer to IRE games, and I didn't know of such things as the issue system then... it's left it's mark and is still something I get miffed with and will avoid at all costs. I play to enjoy, relax and have fun. No reason to get into drama in a game in addition to drama in real life. Thankfully at least up until Orventa's experience with finishing the Grid Lord quest, I hadn't experienced griefing along those lines in Lusternia. Now, it wasn't as serious as that past experience those years ago, but it was something I wish I could have talked to about. I know it has been likely brought up before, but I wouldn't mind the addition of an npk system or flag with some sort of checks and balances. One of the first muds I played, Dragon's Gate, had one where at character creation a player could choose between being pk and npk, where npk couldn't kill anyone nor be killed, it was implied that the gaming experience might not be as rich as those with pk status, but it was an option I thoroughly enjoyed. There was also an option for an npk player to become a pk player, but once implemented they could never return to being an npk player. I don't know how it could work in Lusternia... but it's something I personally wouldn't mind having.

It is quite telling that morbo's situation worsened due to IC action, so I suggest pursuing the same IC action to fix it

While this would solve some problems, it is a highly abusable feature unless limited in how often the flag can be changed. As well, in a conflict-based game as Lusternia, it can cause problems as well, and some people do include killing as part of their character roleplay (vendetta, assassination). Though, yes, these can be prevented by sitting at your nexus or the aetherplex, it might detract a bit from the environment. As well, it would have to be taken into account after defense of territories, which would really only limit to neutral territory(org territory would have to cancel it out), as well as revolts(can't be debated, which is easily abusable).

While I'd personally love such a system, it'd need to go both ways; just add a hefty limitation to it, and it should be fine. Perhaps being able to change once every IC year or every 5 years, or something like that. Permanency is generally a Bad Thing.

>.> Where the blank is the like button when you need it?

Permanent is better. If implemented, the only way you should get npk status is by creating a whole new character.

Man, I just suggested that , no one listens to me

Not necessarily. Pick any two top tier fighters that don't have choke and I bet you I could get away from them if they jumped me. Then compare that to a bard of any tier and someone with choke of any tier and I won't be getting away unless someone else is there to gust me which obviously won't be the case if I'm getting ganked. Crucify is a powerful ability, choke is a powerful ability, and they'll always see use in ganks but things like choke+pfifth where it's impossible to escape are part of the problem in my opinion.

I'm seeing a lot of this disingenuous logic where the abilities aren't that big of a deal. Combatants know what's effective and that's what they use, if choke+pfifth/crucify+trample/etc. wasn't powerful then they wouldn't be used.

I do agree that raiding needs some changes. I think how distort currently works causes annoying interaction with abilities (magical forced movement vs. physical) and arbitrarily moves the cost of raiding to having an aethership. Many discretionaries are crazy powerful and deter raiding without a huge group, by which point it's huge enough to just wipe everything out. I think there should be a gentler curve as it currently goes from raiding being totally pointless to having very little that the opposing side can do about it.



I do think that choke/crucify/blah factors in this discussion because it is used so frequently to gank due to their abilities to prevent escape. I agree with Everiine that this is mainly a player attitude problem though.

Edit: I forgot to mention my mechanical ideas.

Problem with extending grace of innocence is I think it also stops hunting of non rats/newton so extending it to 50 probably wouldn't work well if it still prevented that. Otherwise extending it sounds good. To complement that we should implement (I think it was) Ixion's idea of not allowing graced people to enter enemied territory but only to leave it. Actually we should implement that last part no matter what.

I'm pretty sure it's because that you're one of the people they're talking about in this thread.

It'd also mean that they'd have to set everyone to npk to start with, or allow everyone a free change to npk, or everyone that exists today would never get it. And knowing the admins, odds are there'd be an artifact that'd allow you to switch back to npk again anyway.