No. Hallifax went from doing nothing to anybody (they were uninvolved with raids, they had a pact with Serenwilde so they refused to help us with anything for the longest time and yet still got rewards for being 'on our side'), to actively working against us (defending others, participating in attacks on us, etc). That's not switching sides, that's going from neutral to everyone to "Enemy!"

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that conflict can not occur in this game without people resorting to levels of relentlessly hunting down and antagonizing individuals that makes them want to quit the game?

That's what I saw Morbo complaining about. He said in his post that he Hallifax DID have conflict before switching alliances, and that they didn't have to deal with any of the sort of frustration they he apparently does now.

My response is that he doesn't have any real experience with what conflict is, if he thinks that was conflict.

It really wasn't.

Edit: It was actually less than what the Glomdoring is on the receiving end of right now (which also is not conflict, just annoying nuisance stuff).

Keep to the topic at hand please. Any posts on different topics will be removed from this point onward.

The 'it's your fault, no it's yours' isn't what Estarra meant when she asked for a debate on this topic.

I don't think it's reasonable to say "that's not what conflict is". He was enjoying whatever fights were going on. Let me try re-phrasing the question, are you trying to say the behavior of attacking any and all individuals relentlessly just because the opportunity is there, is acceptable or even the standard for conflict?

Elostian, as this question is still here, is it answerable?

So I have a different question, what determines the level of griefing, especially off plane.

1) xp loss?
2) not being able to hunt?
3) not being able to lead a novice to do their planar tasks?
4) something else?

I ask this because except for astral the planes are set up for conflict. Take for example earth, most people will be hunting it for essence, yet if you want to make an org's shield drop you will have to prevent an org from gaining that essence. Likewise these planes plus astral contain sands of dreaming, of which there is a limited amount, meaning it is a conflict mechanic. Any anti pk mechanic would have to great an impact imho.

Now I personally think nexus worlds should get avenger protection. Since nexus world battles isn't coming back and it are mostly newer players that hunt them. Alternatively just disable their docks/make them city linked only.

Stop making everything on prime enemy. I am mainly talking about things like Krokani/Aslaran/Tosha/Asylum and so on, to my knowledge they aren't involved in conflict quests, or at least not in a significant way that allow you to sabotage other orgs.

Fix some issues that currently exist with avenger:
- when someone gets jumped while hunting npcs, make it that dying to the npc still gives you status.
- Make defending someone easier, allow a city and/or guild and/or order mates to be able to defend regardless of being a personal ally.
- Change it so that attacking someone even in enemy territory allows that person to call in defenders that do not risk status. (eg if you initiate the attack you become free pk till the declare ends)

(I realize some of those might be impossible/unrealistic to code, don't mind me then!)

Also for helping with planar tasks allow undersecs/teachers to get novice helping grace, which doesn't allow attacks of any kind and drops in enemy territory.

I know people like to use this issue as a soapbox for "fixing" skills. While I won't say one way or the other whether any skill may or may not need to be tweaked, I do strongly feel that will do nothing to address griefing. Let me be more explicit: skills have nothing to do with whether someone griefs or not! Yes, you can rail to me about choke or impale, etc., etc., but you really won't make me change my mind about that. People are people, they will remain people and find ways to grief no matter what skills they have access to.

Okay, just to draw focus back to the main issue, keeping my above views in mind, how about addressing these questions:

1. Is griefing a problem?
2. If so, what possible solutions may help curb griefing?

This is a repaste of my earlier post. To summarize, ease up raiding. Real griefing requires multiple people to pull off. A single person can simply be annoying. Other people participate because raiding is too hard. So if Shuyin wants to kill someone, well it's just easier to not raid and kill someone. He's got no outlets if organization defences and enemy territory essence loss are so strong, they discourage and prevent raiding. Essence loss was only added in as an essence sink. We have purchasable powers now which fill that role.

I do know that essence loss in enemy territory is a big reason why a lot of Hallifaxians don't raid at all. We have a fair number of new demis, who don't want to risk losing it.

Hey, I've been playing IRE games for years and these past two days have made me want to stop playing completely. I have been jumped numerous times by Krellan on Faethorn just trying to get my bluebell. While some may say that the problem is overpowered skills, I believe that the problem is the nature of Faethorn. Every other Plane other than Astral is defended by an organization. Faethorn on the other hand is the a prime ganking spot because it is the fulcrum for all the other Planes. I will also mention that Serenwilde and Glomdoring are the -only- two organizations that seem to be in direct conflict with each other on a daily basis and it's where most of the griefing occurs.

There are certainly individuals in the game who "grief". It is a problem, but I don't think there is any mechanical solution that would be ideal.

I might ramble a bit here. But, here is the perspective from a person who was a rogue for an ig century or more. It was at least an ig century. I think.

I use to play Achaea. Would you like to know how long I played Achaea for? About...a week. This is because, when I'm just wandering about fishing, and someone makes me give them all my stuff, and I don't know how to stop that, and when I ask, and get told, it happens...I find that annoying. Now. This is my baseline of annoying.

I come to Lusternia. There's none of that as far as I can see! Even when I dropped my magic tome in Paavik one time, someone mailed it back! Awesome. So this made me happy. And then, I was a rogue.

I don't remember once being jumped so to speak for being a rogue. Maybe because I let everyone know I'm a non-com of the worst type? Maybe because I shared cookies and champagne with every major orginization? I dunno. During that 100 years, not once was I killed as a result of someone saying oh, fun! And mind you, I was sitting at the aetherplex most of this time, well before it got peaced.

I'm actually more scared now that I'm in Celest. That's...not really good. I'd have to say, cause it's more likely people to just hate me for being Celestian and stuff, but, I am nervous to go off prime, to leave the city. This isn't a big issue, seeing all I do is design (*shakefist*) and stuff. But...I really oughta be trying to get to demigod eventually. I'm rambling!

I have heard more novices complain about how they got killed. I don't remember names (I'm terrible with names), but something must have changed. Or maybe, my opinion is bad, since really. When would I have heard novices when I was a rogue (they did talk to me. about how I liked being a rogue. it's really quiet. bring a book, I said)

*end ramble*

Why do I keep forgetting?

I haven't finished the thread yet, but I have to say that I think this is patently untrue though. This is a -constant- cycle. I have seen player requests and input and ranting and badgering have more effect on this game than ANY other game I've played. The admins are -constantly- working with people to try and resolve things. We've gotten many things we've asked for. It's not always in the way we perhaps hoped it would come about, but for every time I read a rant about choke/p5/insert OP flavor of the week here I see someone else saying "Thank you for doing I've been waiting for this for a long time" or similar.

I don't think it's fair to accuse the admin of not listening at all. I'm sorry if you disagree with what they listen to and when, or the decisions they come to with the information we repeatedly thrust in their faces, but they obviously -are- listening, and trying to do their best to make the changes they feel they can while striving to keep the game balanced.

Let's please not use them reaching out to us to try and address something one of us has told them is an issue as an excuse to abuse them and help ensure they stop bothering.

I agree with Ytran's post.


My two cents:

The game is a conflict game. Most of the skills revolve around combat. If you want to stay out of fights, you're as entitled to here as anywhere else, but you should be aware that you're probably not the kind of player the game is mainly made for. And you'll be restricted in where you go. Don't expect to be allowed to influence fae in Faethorn and be left alone by everyone, for instance. In a way, you're already participating in org conflict right there.

Losses for deaths (outside of enemy territory for demis) are negligible. You lose little experience and only a few select items from your inventory. When you die while bashing or doing whatever, don't fret over it for long. Draw your consequences from what happened (get amnesty, scan or scent often, switch to another hunting/influencing ground for a while, just to name a few) and go on with your business. Doing nothing costs you more experience (and gold) than you lose from the occasional death.

If you want to learn how to survive and fight back, practise. It's even fun once you start getting the hang of it!
And if you don't want to get into the the intricacies of fighting, you can still become an expert at evading combat, that part can be brought to perfection, too.



You have access to scent and can work on getting your org's epic quest reward to get to safety quickly. That might not always save you from being jumped - but everyone else, even the 'griefers', are in the same situation. A certain level of alertness is required once you leave the safety of your org's territory/Prime, and it might take a while before you react quickly enough. Don't give up so easily!

I am frustrated to see the attempts to leverage this thread into support for an open envoy report.

I feel like griefing is up because activity is up. People are home from school.

I don't really think that the blood family honour has anything to do with it -- people trying to gain honour this way are absurdly misusing their time. The honour gained is incidental - I've mentioned before that I chose this house type because I wished to avoid getting penalized for people's regular activities, not to incentivize griefing, as well as for the ar-pee reasons outlined in our family new boards. I imagine this is the same case for the other Blood Houses. But if you do not believe this, take away the honour bonus, and have the bonus be the lack of penalty. No skin off my nose, nor anyone else's I imagine - I do not believe it will have an effect on the amount of fighting one way or the other.


This would require so many loopholes to keep it from being abusable that it might not be worth implementing... others have noted this already.

Regarding Faethorn specifically as a combat zone, I agree that it would be cool to tune it down there. I would not mind to see another event or word from Maeve reminding us. I feel like the conflict there has directly escalated as a result of in-game politics and alliances, and would love to see it resolved the same way between Glomdoring and Serenwilde. We've been able to coexist there with only isolated combat before, I don't feel like that's out of reach. City involvement on all sides has hurt the situation there, to the detriment of non-coms from both orgs.

Veyrz, man, when it reaches the point where even experienced combatants don't have a chance against it, it's gone way too far. The type of ganks I'm talking about here are instant death to fighters, but are getting used on non-comms without discrimination as well. Just escape isn't an option. That needs to change. If it changed, this would not be an issue.

I was on the receiving end for pfifth and choke more than once, and know it is nasty. However, I never had anything but bad choke curing, so I can't really judge the matter well. I'd defer that to Fillin, who has a good system, the necessary experience and is known to see a seemingly overwhelming offense as a challenge to improve his curing and tactics rather than just whine about it.

You know, it doesn't matter how people are killed but more why right? The mods and admin already said to stop with that.