Tetra2011-07-14 14:09:18
QUOTE (Sidd @ Jul 14 2011, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
it's an inconvenience yes, but not incredibly so, it's actually really really minor, you're totally just blowing it our of proportion. When I first started playing in Glom, I had to wait quite some time to get favored because there was an election in the Nekotai who have the same rule for similar reasons. If you aren't worried about getting your own favors, then why even bring it up? Have new players complained to you? If yes, then explain the reasoning why and they'll probably go 'oh ok, I can understand that' (I've done this numerous times as well).
Sometimes I think we forget Lusternia is a game, not a real economy/government/thing. This forum is to discuss the game(i.e. an enjoyable activity).
I would be willing to bet money that guild retention would go up if you took that law out.
Also, an aside note, how honestly hard is it to distinguish an exam favour from some random bribery favour with an unjustifiable reason behind it? And if you're worried about your Undersecs/Secs letting newbies get a free meal ticket with their GR exams(highly improbably), HIRE BETTER ONES. Don't punish your entire org.
Arath2011-07-14 14:15:00
It's really a nonissue. It is a minor inconvenience that delays one thing. The ability to vote in elections. Meaning it serves its purpose in preventing someone to make a lot of alts, breeze through the novice advancements and manipulate the election.
Tetra2011-07-14 14:18:05
QUOTE (Jack @ Jul 14 2011, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Honestly, I don't see it. A real newbie is going to be too busy getting themselves oriented to worry about advancement, and I'm sure the average player is aware of the ubiquitousness of the policy already, and has learned to deal with the (minor) inconvenience it represents. It means a couple of days without favours - favours, mind, which any city/commune with a shred of organization will already have noted and backlogged for later. Where's the issue?
Well, there are newbies, and then there are players who have played an IRE MUD before(large demographic of the players) and know how all the basic game mechanics work. In a game like Lusternia that requires healthy cooperation in the political sector of things, adding unnecessary beaurocratic procedure is the last thing you want to do.
Being highly organised does not mean your playerbase is a happy one.
Sidd2011-07-14 14:25:05
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 08:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, there are newbies, and then there are players who have played an IRE MUD before(large demographic of the players) and know how all the basic game mechanics work. In a game like Lusternia that requires healthy cooperation in the political sector of things, adding unnecessary beaurocratic procedure is the last thing you want to do.
Being highly organised does not mean your playerbase is a happy one.
Being highly organised does not mean your playerbase is a happy one.
Someone contests, all his buddies make alts, Someone then favors them all for passing guild exams to gr3, they all vote for Someone, Corruption success
It is a game, but being a game, things need to be fair, and it isn't fair if someone makes a ton of alts to win an election
This isn't unnecessary, as has been shown a million times before, if someone can abuse something, they will. This prevents that, which in my opinion, makes for a happier, healthier game population
Unknown2011-07-14 14:30:33
Vote weight was invented to help alleviate that sort of abuse, but a bit of AFKing can usually offset that (on non-newbies, at least).
Tetra2011-07-14 14:33:03
QUOTE (Sidd @ Jul 14 2011, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Someone contests, all his buddies make alts, Someone then favors them all for passing guild exams to gr3, they all vote for Someone, Corruption success
It is a game, but being a game, things need to be fair, and it isn't fair if someone makes a ton of alts to win an election
This isn't unnecessary, as has been shown a million times before, if someone can abuse something, they will. This prevents that, which in my opinion, makes for a happier, healthier game population
It is a game, but being a game, things need to be fair, and it isn't fair if someone makes a ton of alts to win an election
This isn't unnecessary, as has been shown a million times before, if someone can abuse something, they will. This prevents that, which in my opinion, makes for a happier, healthier game population
Except you can only favour somebody once an IG month, and you would need to be a guild leader or very high GR to bump them up that quickly. I remember something similar to that scenario happened in Gaudiguch a long time ago, and it was cracked down on very fast.
I don't know why we, as players, feel responsible for that sort of thing.
It isn't our job as guild/city leaders to make sure players don't exploit the game. That's the admin's job. We're supposed to make the environment as fun and engaging as possible for new ones. Which brings me to another point, a lot of the advancement systems for the Gaudi guilds are underdeveloped and are far too easy.
The trick isn't to cockblock your players from getting GR3, the trick is to develop your advancement specs so that you -can't- make a bunch of random alts and abuse it.
Edit:
Lusternia is very different from most MMO games in that the admin are very hands on - if you break a rule, they'll do something about it.
Sidd2011-07-14 14:47:16
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Except you can only favour somebody once an IG month, and you would need to be a guild leader or very high GR to bump them up that quickly. I remember something similar to that scenario happened in Gaudiguch a long time ago, and it was cracked down on very fast.
I don't know why we, as players, feel responsible for that sort of thing.
It isn't our job as guild/city leaders to make sure players don't exploit the game. That's the admin's job. We're supposed to make the environment as fun and engaging as possible for new ones.
Edit:
Lusternia is very different from most MMO games in that the admin are very hands on - if you break a rule, they'll do something about it.
I don't know why we, as players, feel responsible for that sort of thing.
It isn't our job as guild/city leaders to make sure players don't exploit the game. That's the admin's job. We're supposed to make the environment as fun and engaging as possible for new ones.
Edit:
Lusternia is very different from most MMO games in that the admin are very hands on - if you break a rule, they'll do something about it.
It's not always blatantly obvious, I know of quite a few elections that alt abuse was suspected but nothing came of it, and why shouldn't players help police it? The admin may be hands on, but they can't be everywhere, watching everything while continuing to code new areas and quests(something else you posted about) and bug fixes and envoy things and everything they do. It's easy to exploit an election if you really want not to mention there is an IC reason for the lack of favours showing abuse within the game that didn't really break any rules.
It really isn't that big of a deal, I don't think it hurts retention at all, and I do think it makes for a healthier game environment. If you can't wait that long for a favor, then you really are simply impatient.
Diamondais2011-07-14 14:51:07
Most orgs also keep a list of who needs to be favoured, it also goes a long way to step up and say "Hey, I did this test x days ago" if the leadership changes. They might double check it, but you will get the favour.
And Gaudiguch has definitely had problems with alts in elections. Oh god.
And Gaudiguch has definitely had problems with alts in elections. Oh god.
Tetra2011-07-14 15:04:29
QUOTE (Sidd @ Jul 14 2011, 03:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not always blatantly obvious, I know of quite a few elections that alt abuse was suspected but nothing came of it, and why shouldn't players help police it? The admin may be hands on, but they can't be everywhere, watching everything while continuing to code new areas and quests(something else you posted about) and bug fixes and envoy things and everything they do. It's easy to exploit an election if you really want not to mention there is an IC reason for the lack of favours showing abuse within the game that didn't really break any rules.
It really isn't that big of a deal, I don't think it hurts retention at all, and I do think it makes for a healthier game environment. If you can't wait that long for a favor, then you really are simply impatient.
It really isn't that big of a deal, I don't think it hurts retention at all, and I do think it makes for a healthier game environment. If you can't wait that long for a favor, then you really are simply impatient.
I don't spend the amount of money I do on Lusternia to have the players moderate the game for me.
Like I said before:
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 03:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Which brings me to another point, a lot of the advancement systems for the Gaudi guilds are underdeveloped and are far too easy.
The trick isn't to cockblock your players from getting GR3, the trick is to develop your advancement specs so that you -can't- make a bunch of random alts and abuse it.
The trick isn't to cockblock your players from getting GR3, the trick is to develop your advancement specs so that you -can't- make a bunch of random alts and abuse it.
The Institute has a really fun(but challenging) advancement system that prevents people from doing this sort of thing. If your guild leaders aren't doing anything to improve that situation, maybe they deserve to be usurped and that psycho-alter.
That way, you're scaling the guildrank. Instead of looking at it as 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19 - look at it like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.
Vadi2011-07-14 15:11:39
tl;dr: I've never seen nebwies complaining that they can't get favoured 3 days before an election in Gaudi, or why would they suddenly be so discouraged from just doing anything just because they can't get favoured.
imho, you just made this fuss up.
imho, you just made this fuss up.
Tetra2011-07-14 15:18:00
QUOTE (Vadi @ Jul 14 2011, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
tl;dr: I've never seen nebwies complaining that they can't get favoured 3 days before an election in Gaudi, or why would they suddenly be so discouraged from just doing anything just because they can't get favoured.
imho, you just made this fuss up.
imho, you just made this fuss up.
Gaudiguch has problems. I make a thread about it. Yu no lyke, go away.
Sidd2011-07-14 15:35:49
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gaudiguch has problems. I make a thread about it. Yu no lyke, go away.
Gaudiguch has problems, none of which you've stated, you are making up problems and whether you pay money to lusternia or not, the players moderate the game, which one of it's biggest selling points I think. There are org rules, guild rules, order rules, alliance rules, all of which moderates your game play. Not a single person has agreed with you, Have any newbies personally complained to you that they just can't take this no favoring rule and are never going to play again? I mean really, where is this all coming from besides you not being able to get the favors you need?
To be fair, if you don't like the rules of Gaudiguch, then move somewhere else, but I'm pretty sure similar rules are in every org
Enyalida2011-07-14 15:37:54
What I don't understand is this: What do you think being favored will actually get you? Increasing in GR dosn't do anything but voting privs (which is what everyone is trying to avoid handing out). In the Hartstone, we have a set way to get up to GR3 pretty darn fast, but if there is some reason we have to not give you those favors, by gosh we aren't going to give them to you and you have to deal with that! It doesn't in any way hinder you going to do other things, or participating in the guild, it just means you don't get a shiny number 3 next to your name in GWHO, and you can't vote in elections.
I agree that you are blowing this out of proportion and somewhere weird. Talk to your guild about becoming an US yourself when you get the chance, that is a good way to fix there not being any around. Trust me, I've been part of a tooooootally empty guild. Eventually, the lull passes and things move along faster.
I agree that you are blowing this out of proportion and somewhere weird. Talk to your guild about becoming an US yourself when you get the chance, that is a good way to fix there not being any around. Trust me, I've been part of a tooooootally empty guild. Eventually, the lull passes and things move along faster.
Neos2011-07-14 17:00:57
QUOTE (Enyalida @ Jul 14 2011, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What I don't understand is this: What do you think being favored will actually get you? Increasing in GR dosn't do anything but voting privs (which is what everyone is trying to avoid handing out). In the Hartstone, we have a set way to get up to GR3 pretty darn fast, but if there is some reason we have to not give you those favors, by gosh we aren't going to give them to you and you have to deal with that! It doesn't in any way hinder you going to do other things, or participating in the guild, it just means you don't get a shiny number 3 next to your name in GWHO, and you can't vote in elections.
I agree that you are blowing this out of proportion and somewhere weird. Talk to your guild about becoming an US yourself when you get the chance, that is a good way to fix there not being any around. Trust me, I've been part of a tooooootally empty guild. Eventually, the lull passes and things move along faster.
I agree that you are blowing this out of proportion and somewhere weird. Talk to your guild about becoming an US yourself when you get the chance, that is a good way to fix there not being any around. Trust me, I've been part of a tooooootally empty guild. Eventually, the lull passes and things move along faster.
But it's a very shiny 3, though I prefer a nice shiny even number myself.
Tetra2011-07-14 17:37:27
QUOTE (Sidd @ Jul 14 2011, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gaudiguch has problems, none of which you've stated, you are making up problems and whether you pay money to lusternia or not, the players moderate the game, which one of it's biggest selling points I think. There are org rules, guild rules, order rules, alliance rules, all of which moderates your game play. Not a single person has agreed with you, Have any newbies personally complained to you that they just can't take this no favoring rule and are never going to play again? I mean really, where is this all coming from besides you not being able to get the favors you need?
To be fair, if you don't like the rules of Gaudiguch, then move somewhere else, but I'm pretty sure similar rules are in every org
To be fair, if you don't like the rules of Gaudiguch, then move somewhere else, but I'm pretty sure similar rules are in every org
This entire thread is about Gaudiguch. Did you even read any of my posts? Because you clearly didn't, at all.
Also, do you think I care if anyone agrees with anything I say? This isn't a popularity contest, it's my opinion. Which I have no problem voicing. And new players don't need to complain to me about it, because guess what - I'm a player. I find it pointless to have dialogue with you on the topic anymore, since you're fixated on the notion all I care about is getting favoured, which is completed besides the point.
QUOTE (Enyalida @ Jul 14 2011, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What I don't understand is this: What do you think being favored will actually get you? Increasing in GR dosn't do anything but voting privs (which is what everyone is trying to avoid handing out). In the Hartstone, we have a set way to get up to GR3 pretty darn fast, but if there is some reason we have to not give you those favors, by gosh we aren't going to give them to you and you have to deal with that! It doesn't in any way hinder you going to do other things, or participating in the guild, it just means you don't get a shiny number 3 next to your name in GWHO, and you can't vote in elections.
I agree that you are blowing this out of proportion and somewhere weird. Talk to your guild about becoming an US yourself when you get the chance, that is a good way to fix there not being any around. Trust me, I've been part of a tooooootally empty guild. Eventually, the lull passes and things move along faster.
I agree that you are blowing this out of proportion and somewhere weird. Talk to your guild about becoming an US yourself when you get the chance, that is a good way to fix there not being any around. Trust me, I've been part of a tooooootally empty guild. Eventually, the lull passes and things move along faster.
Again, this has nothing to do about getting something special? It's just a wasteful use of time to drag it out when people feel like getting stuff done. I've been a Secretary before. I would rather not have to wait 3 whole real life days just to do something that would normally take 15 or 20 minutes otherwise.
Razenth2011-07-14 17:38:06
I avoided getting GR3 in any of the guilds I was past Celestines. Meant I didn't need to vote.
Forums don't represent a majority of players; just a very vocal minority.
Gaudiguch has a long tradition of corruption and elections; it's what adds to the charm.
Forums don't represent a majority of players; just a very vocal minority.
Gaudiguch has a long tradition of corruption and elections; it's what adds to the charm.
Turnus2011-07-14 17:46:02
Not reading through the whole thing, but I don't see an issue with favorbanning during elections. Keep in mind GR/CR has absolutely NO bearing on your ability to enjoy the game (Except for village revolts). If they were completely banning inductions/guild advancing people past novicehood that would be a different issue.
A guild having a lot of GR1 people is fairly common and a separate issue. Most guilds I think have some sort of set task to do to get promoted through the initial ranks. The SG have a fairly easy advancement task (basically get weapons and armor, that's about it) and we still have half the guild is GR1. But the people that actually do stuff get promoted to gr4+ very quickly.
A guild having a lot of GR1 people is fairly common and a separate issue. Most guilds I think have some sort of set task to do to get promoted through the initial ranks. The SG have a fairly easy advancement task (basically get weapons and armor, that's about it) and we still have half the guild is GR1. But the people that actually do stuff get promoted to gr4+ very quickly.
Jack2011-07-14 17:58:24
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This entire thread is about Gaudiguch. Did you even read any of my posts? Because you clearly didn't, at all.
The thread is nominally about Gaudiguch, but I think most organizations have adopted this policy of not favouring during elections, opening up the forum for discussion. The specific cited grievances with Gaudiguch - a surplus of low guildranks, coupled with a lack of undersecretary activity - don't seem related to or symptomatic of this issue; that's a matter of stringent requirements for advancement, instituted wholly by players, which is a different kettle of fish. (Personally, I have no problem with that issue, as you have all your guildskills at GR1. Guild advancement should be entirely at the discretion of the guild leaders.) The arguments in favour of banning favouring during elections have already been presented: you disagree with them, but haven't raised any especially compelling reasons why, which is another reason discussion is meandering. Consequently, I don't think it's a surprise Sidd has seized on the notion of you being hungry for favours.
If you have nothing new to add, it might be best to pursue change in-character - as a player-instituted policy, you're not going to get administrative caveat to change it.
Enyalida2011-07-14 18:10:29
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Again, this has nothing to do about getting something special? It's just a wasteful use of time to drag it out when people feel like getting stuff done. I've been a Secretary before. I would rather not have to wait 3 whole real life days just to do something that would normally take 15 or 20 minutes otherwise.
What I'm saying is that GR3 dosn't empower you to get stuff done. If you want to get stuff done, get it done. Don't wait for people to GF you, because that has nothing to do with how much you yourself can get stuff done. It's a number. That means very little in terms of actual power, and even LESS in your context.
See Turnus two posts back.... And several people throughout the entire thread.
EDIT: And yeah. Keeping people at novice is whack. Guildranks past that are honestly at the discretion of the leaders, as long as they aren't abusing the voting system.
Sidd2011-07-14 21:36:44
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This entire thread is about Gaudiguch. Did you even read any of my posts? Because you clearly didn't, at all.
Also, do you think I care if anyone agrees with anything I say? This isn't a popularity contest, it's my opinion. Which I have no problem voicing. And new players don't need to complain to me about it, because guess what - I'm a player. I find it pointless to have dialogue with you on the topic anymore, since you're fixated on the notion all I care about is getting favoured, which is completed besides the point.
Again, this has nothing to do about getting something special? It's just a wasteful use of time to drag it out when people feel like getting stuff done. I've been a Secretary before. I would rather not have to wait 3 whole real life days just to do something that would normally take 15 or 20 minutes otherwise.
Also, do you think I care if anyone agrees with anything I say? This isn't a popularity contest, it's my opinion. Which I have no problem voicing. And new players don't need to complain to me about it, because guess what - I'm a player. I find it pointless to have dialogue with you on the topic anymore, since you're fixated on the notion all I care about is getting favoured, which is completed besides the point.
Again, this has nothing to do about getting something special? It's just a wasteful use of time to drag it out when people feel like getting stuff done. I've been a Secretary before. I would rather not have to wait 3 whole real life days just to do something that would normally take 15 or 20 minutes otherwise.
I'm really just baffled by you now, the Opening post states specifically that you have a problem with banning favors during elections, and I don't think that's a problem with Gaudiguch whatsoever, Gaudiguch has problems, this isn't one of them. That's my opinion and thus far, nothing you have said has come even close to swaying my mind any other way. The fact that I'm not the only one to think that means that other people agree with me, and I find it hard to believe that you are the only reasonable smart one and the rest of us are dumbasses. Your main argument was that you feel retention within the guilds is hampered due to this ban yet you don't know of anyone who quit because of it because no one has complained about it. I've know a few people who, after explaining the reason I couldn't favor them at that point, completely understood and continued to play, and I've never had anyone complain about it and quit forever. You have no support for your claim. In fact, lets pull out two quotes
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I find it pointless to have dialogue with you on the topic anymore, since you're fixated on the notion all I care about is getting favoured, which is completed besides the point.
QUOTE (Tetra @ Jul 14 2011, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would rather not have to wait 3 whole real life days just to do something that would normally take 15 or 20 minutes otherwise.
Those two statements contradict each other(despite the fact getting favored doesn't prevent you from doing anything besides voting, as has been pointed out several times.)
You seem to think you need favors to contribute and indeed do want them, and not getting favors due to the election ban is wrong for preventing that.
You might not want to continue this dialogue but it's quite obvious there are a few more selfish goals in mind that doing this 'for guild retention and the noobs.'