Morbo2011-07-22 18:59:44
I have to say, one of the things I love about Lusternia is that there are organizational objectives that are achievable and meaningful...What I hate is the implementation of those ideas and the unbalance between them. It is well known that spheres and fleshpots are far easier to raid and kill than Demonlords/Supernals, which are far easier to raid and kill than the ethereal smobs. Yes, this is flavor due to the amount of them so the ones with fewer are harder to kill. However, this completely disbalances the game.
I have to say, the worst moments I've ever had in the game are during sphere raids, and then after. Losing the spheres is bad enough when Demonlord raids have been turned away and stopped with 5-6 people, and we can't even kill a significant portion of a group with spheres and 10-15 defender. When a demonlord by itself killed about 10x more people than those 10-15 defenders and 12 spheres did. Knowing that I have brought up the issue is sphere balance to be told by Eventru that they are balanced, and then conversely told by Estarra that the spheres assisting were bugged and not working right when I'd brought this issue up the last two sphere raids.
However, that isn't enough, we also have to as an organization spend hours and hours on end getting essence to repair the spheres, all the while being attacked on the elemental planes by the same people that killed the spheres. Who in their right mind ever thought making an organization lose, and then get harassed for hours was a smart play? Every sphere raid I see more and more people leave Hallifax or go inactive, Two sphere raids were enough to make us lose all of our combatants except for me, and the third is likely to see me unable to take it anymore.
What Lusternia needs to do is make all the cosmic planes clones of each other, I understand that this is more boring and some of the RP concepts of having separate spheres will be gone, but it would be balanced then, and if there was a problem with the system everyone would have it. There wouldn't be this endless tweaking each type of raid to be roughly equal (I say roughly because they will never be even) I think players would be more inclined to stay because there wouldn't be such a sense of injustice every time the spheres are raided.
Yes, this system wouldn't help the hours (sometimes days) of harassment citizens face after raids, but it would help alleviate the fact that Hallifax is completely helpless against raids. It would mean there wasn't ever a question of "We should raid Gaudiguch because Supernals are way too hard to kill, and ethereal is fort knox", it would become almost entirely an RP decision of who to raid. So, an idea that increases balance, and makes IC decisions more influenced by RP than mechanics? That sounds like something worth achieving to me
I have to say, the worst moments I've ever had in the game are during sphere raids, and then after. Losing the spheres is bad enough when Demonlord raids have been turned away and stopped with 5-6 people, and we can't even kill a significant portion of a group with spheres and 10-15 defender. When a demonlord by itself killed about 10x more people than those 10-15 defenders and 12 spheres did. Knowing that I have brought up the issue is sphere balance to be told by Eventru that they are balanced, and then conversely told by Estarra that the spheres assisting were bugged and not working right when I'd brought this issue up the last two sphere raids.
However, that isn't enough, we also have to as an organization spend hours and hours on end getting essence to repair the spheres, all the while being attacked on the elemental planes by the same people that killed the spheres. Who in their right mind ever thought making an organization lose, and then get harassed for hours was a smart play? Every sphere raid I see more and more people leave Hallifax or go inactive, Two sphere raids were enough to make us lose all of our combatants except for me, and the third is likely to see me unable to take it anymore.
What Lusternia needs to do is make all the cosmic planes clones of each other, I understand that this is more boring and some of the RP concepts of having separate spheres will be gone, but it would be balanced then, and if there was a problem with the system everyone would have it. There wouldn't be this endless tweaking each type of raid to be roughly equal (I say roughly because they will never be even) I think players would be more inclined to stay because there wouldn't be such a sense of injustice every time the spheres are raided.
Yes, this system wouldn't help the hours (sometimes days) of harassment citizens face after raids, but it would help alleviate the fact that Hallifax is completely helpless against raids. It would mean there wasn't ever a question of "We should raid Gaudiguch because Supernals are way too hard to kill, and ethereal is fort knox", it would become almost entirely an RP decision of who to raid. So, an idea that increases balance, and makes IC decisions more influenced by RP than mechanics? That sounds like something worth achieving to me
Unknown2011-07-22 19:16:02
Honestly, even if you are correct and there's a so called "perfect balance" (which I don't believe any game can ever achieve), I suspect Hallifax is still going to have a problem because right now, the axis of power is with the Celest-Glomdoring alliance.
As long as the majority of fighters are concentrated in those two communities (especially why they are working together) and not evened out amonst the orgs, I think you're still going to have a bit of a problem no matter what the orgs do.
And this has happened before--I'm not blaming them--at one time Magnagora was beating Celest down a lot, and Glomdoring was once the most troubled community. But as players leave and get replaced, things can change. But since this isn't Team Fortress where you can just deal with it as anonymous avatars on a server and/or are playing with the short term, you have to be very patient.
I will note they did tone down raiding in the past, and I'm sure it will happen if things get too bad.
As long as the majority of fighters are concentrated in those two communities (especially why they are working together) and not evened out amonst the orgs, I think you're still going to have a bit of a problem no matter what the orgs do.
And this has happened before--I'm not blaming them--at one time Magnagora was beating Celest down a lot, and Glomdoring was once the most troubled community. But as players leave and get replaced, things can change. But since this isn't Team Fortress where you can just deal with it as anonymous avatars on a server and/or are playing with the short term, you have to be very patient.
I will note they did tone down raiding in the past, and I'm sure it will happen if things get too bad.
Unknown2011-07-22 19:16:49
QUOTE (Morbo @ Jul 22 2011, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have to say, one of the things I love about Lusternia is that there are organizational objectives that are achievable and meaningful...What I hate is the implementation of those ideas and the unbalance between them. It is well known that spheres and fleshpots are far easier to raid and kill than Demonlords/Supernals, which are far easier to raid and kill than the ethereal smobs. Yes, this is flavor due to the amount of them so the ones with fewer are harder to kill. However, this completely disbalances the game.
I have to say, the worst moments I've ever had in the game are during sphere raids, and then after. Losing the spheres is bad enough when Demonlord raids have been turned away and stopped with 5-6 people, and we can't even kill a significant portion of a group with spheres and 10-15 defender. When a demonlord by itself killed about 10x more people than those 10-15 defenders and 12 spheres did. Knowing that I have brought up the issue is sphere balance to be told by Eventru that they are balanced, and then conversely told by Estarra that the spheres assisting were bugged and not working right when I'd brought this issue up the last two sphere raids.
However, that isn't enough, we also have to as an organization spend hours and hours on end getting essence to repair the spheres, all the while being attacked on the elemental planes by the same people that killed the spheres. Who in their right mind ever thought making an organization lose, and then get harassed for hours was a smart play? Every sphere raid I see more and more people leave Hallifax or go inactive, Two sphere raids were enough to make us lose all of our combatants except for me, and the third is likely to see me unable to take it anymore.
What Lusternia needs to do is make all the cosmic planes clones of each other, I understand that this is more boring and some of the RP concepts of having separate spheres will be gone, but it would be balanced then, and if there was a problem with the system everyone would have it. There wouldn't be this endless tweaking each type of raid to be roughly equal (I say roughly because they will never be even) I think players would be more inclined to stay because there wouldn't be such a sense of injustice every time the spheres are raided.
Yes, this system wouldn't help the hours (sometimes days) of harassment citizens face after raids, but it would help alleviate the fact that Hallifax is completely helpless against raids. It would mean there wasn't ever a question of "We should raid Gaudiguch because Supernals are way too hard to kill, and ethereal is fort knox", it would become almost entirely an RP decision of who to raid. So, an idea that increases balance, and makes IC decisions more influenced by RP than mechanics? That sounds like something worth achieving to me
I have to say, the worst moments I've ever had in the game are during sphere raids, and then after. Losing the spheres is bad enough when Demonlord raids have been turned away and stopped with 5-6 people, and we can't even kill a significant portion of a group with spheres and 10-15 defender. When a demonlord by itself killed about 10x more people than those 10-15 defenders and 12 spheres did. Knowing that I have brought up the issue is sphere balance to be told by Eventru that they are balanced, and then conversely told by Estarra that the spheres assisting were bugged and not working right when I'd brought this issue up the last two sphere raids.
However, that isn't enough, we also have to as an organization spend hours and hours on end getting essence to repair the spheres, all the while being attacked on the elemental planes by the same people that killed the spheres. Who in their right mind ever thought making an organization lose, and then get harassed for hours was a smart play? Every sphere raid I see more and more people leave Hallifax or go inactive, Two sphere raids were enough to make us lose all of our combatants except for me, and the third is likely to see me unable to take it anymore.
What Lusternia needs to do is make all the cosmic planes clones of each other, I understand that this is more boring and some of the RP concepts of having separate spheres will be gone, but it would be balanced then, and if there was a problem with the system everyone would have it. There wouldn't be this endless tweaking each type of raid to be roughly equal (I say roughly because they will never be even) I think players would be more inclined to stay because there wouldn't be such a sense of injustice every time the spheres are raided.
Yes, this system wouldn't help the hours (sometimes days) of harassment citizens face after raids, but it would help alleviate the fact that Hallifax is completely helpless against raids. It would mean there wasn't ever a question of "We should raid Gaudiguch because Supernals are way too hard to kill, and ethereal is fort knox", it would become almost entirely an RP decision of who to raid. So, an idea that increases balance, and makes IC decisions more influenced by RP than mechanics? That sounds like something worth achieving to me
Just woke up and too tired to add anything constructive yet, besides that I agree that having the easy to kill cosmic mobs is a huge flipping pain and just because there are more of them doesn't make it "work". Ok, so we just have twelve things that are easier to kill. It's not like they gotta fight all twelve at once. One sphere raid, by the time us and our allies grouped up got up to the plane (five minutes at most), all spheres but two were dead already. Even if they weren't defending each other properly? That is still way too fast IMO.
But I don't agree with your proposed solution.
QUOTE
Two sphere raids were enough to make us lose all of our combatants except for me,
stfu morbo you are not the only person in Hallifax who fights and you do NOT know if that was the reason why some of our other fighters stopped playing
Malarious2011-07-22 19:17:47
Make ethereal not a fort
Make spheres/pots work properly
When mobs show up to defend eachother the ROOM should be about the same strength on any plane (so 1 av = 2 dl = 3 spheres or somethin?)
Fixed?
Make spheres/pots work properly
When mobs show up to defend eachother the ROOM should be about the same strength on any plane (so 1 av = 2 dl = 3 spheres or somethin?)
Fixed?
Jack2011-07-22 19:23:25
QUOTE (Phred @ Jul 22 2011, 08:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Valid, but that's not really his point, though. The Celest/Glomdoring alliance exacerbates the situation, because there's a lot more combatants readily available to raid the spheres - but the fact remains that all of the Demon Lords were knocked out, too, and Magnagora aren't complaining about their strength. There's a clear disparity between the power of the spheres/fleshpots and their equivalents, and having more of them isn't solving anything unless a system is implemented whereby they defend each other more vehemently. You only had to be online to see how many people died during the two raids: a couple of weaklings during the Continuum raid, and a whole host of combatants (including Demis) during the DL one.
Ushaara2011-07-22 19:40:36
I think there's a bit of an over-reaction here. Remember easier to kill also means easier to raise. We had Opal restored before Mag raised Nifilhema, despite raid coming after and what, two hours before Opal dropped?
But spheres not defending each other properly will hopefully be fixed, yes. I'd say let's see how defense goes once they're fixed before clamoring for change.
The competition for essence after will always be there and isn't anything the admin can 'fix.' Hallifax comes off a bit worse in it due to population it has, lacking know-how on Xion quest etc. You can either let it affect you or not, I think.
EDIT: One hour for all 12 to drop.
But spheres not defending each other properly will hopefully be fixed, yes. I'd say let's see how defense goes once they're fixed before clamoring for change.
The competition for essence after will always be there and isn't anything the admin can 'fix.' Hallifax comes off a bit worse in it due to population it has, lacking know-how on Xion quest etc. You can either let it affect you or not, I think.
EDIT: One hour for all 12 to drop.
Aison2011-07-22 19:55:14
QUOTE (Phoebus @ Jul 22 2011, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just woke up and too tired to add anything constructive yet, besides that I agree that having the easy to kill cosmic mobs is a huge flipping pain and just because there are more of them doesn't make it "work". Ok, so we just have twelve things that are easier to kill. It's not like they gotta fight all twelve at once. One sphere raid, by the time us and our allies grouped up got up to the plane (five minutes at most), all spheres but two were dead already. Even if they weren't defending each other properly? That is still way too fast IMO.
But I don't agree with your proposed solution.
stfu morbo you are not the only person in Hallifax who fights and you do NOT know if that was the reason why some of our other fighters stopped playing
But I don't agree with your proposed solution.
stfu morbo you are not the only person in Hallifax who fights and you do NOT know if that was the reason why some of our other fighters stopped playing
This isn't me being all, 'argh what a liar you are', but do you have the logs with timestamps of people killing the spheres? And do any Mags have timestamps on the DLs?
Because from what I have read, Estarra saw that people were killing all 5 cosmic smobs in 5 minutes and then they received their first(?) buff because that's not how Estarra intends the game to be played.
I don't believe spheres ought to go down as slowly as smobs simply because, well, there's a lot more of them and you should ideally get more time to group up to form a defence, but if all 12 are being wiped out in 5 minutes as compared to DLs which took, um, guesstimating here, about 15-30 (though I had heard Luci was bugging out a bit with his health leech), then yes, that is a problem initially.
And comparing smobs/spheres/fleshpots to Avatars is laughable. Logging in yesterday I had read, "Hit Avatars?" "No, too difficult." to a supergroup of superhumans who just wiped out Dls and spheres in one awesome fell swoop. In my history of playing Lusternia, I personally only ever participated in one Avatar raid, can only think of three that ever happened (and fairly sure I am being generous there), and only because it was forced upon the playerbase for that super retarded hai'gloh event (which I definitely think the admin should never repeat ever again. NEVER AGAIN YOU HEAR ME.).
It would be nice if all the smob/avatar planes were on equal footing, though I doubt this will ever happen. You just have to be exceptional.
Neos2011-07-22 19:56:28
Spheres did defend each other. Every single raid I've been a part of they've defended each other.
Unknown2011-07-22 19:57:42
QUOTE (Aison @ Jul 22 2011, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This isn't me being all, 'argh what a liar you are', but do you have the logs with timestamps of people killing the spheres? And do any Mags have timestamps on the DLs?
Because from what I have read, Estarra saw that people were killing all 5 cosmic smobs in 5 minutes and then they received their first(?) buff because that's not how Estarra intends the game to be played.
I don't believe spheres ought to go down as slowly as smobs simply because, well, there's a lot more of them and you should ideally get more time to group up to form a defence, but if all 12 are being wiped out in 5 minutes as compared to DLs which took, um, guesstimating here, about 15-30 (though I had heard Luci was bugging out a bit with his health leech), then yes, that is a problem initially.
And comparing smobs/spheres/fleshpots to Avatars is laughable. Logging in yesterday I had read, "Hit Avatars?" "No, too difficult." to a supergroup of superhumans who just wiped out Dls and spheres in one awesome fell swoop. In my history of playing Lusternia, I personally only ever participated in one Avatar raid, can only think of three that ever happened (and fairly sure I am being generous there), and only because it was forced upon the playerbase for that super retarded hai'gloh event (which I definitely think the admin should never repeat ever again. NEVER AGAIN YOU HEAR ME.).
It would be nice if all the smob/avatar planes were on equal footing, though I doubt this will ever happen. You just have to be exceptional.
Because from what I have read, Estarra saw that people were killing all 5 cosmic smobs in 5 minutes and then they received their first(?) buff because that's not how Estarra intends the game to be played.
I don't believe spheres ought to go down as slowly as smobs simply because, well, there's a lot more of them and you should ideally get more time to group up to form a defence, but if all 12 are being wiped out in 5 minutes as compared to DLs which took, um, guesstimating here, about 15-30 (though I had heard Luci was bugging out a bit with his health leech), then yes, that is a problem initially.
And comparing smobs/spheres/fleshpots to Avatars is laughable. Logging in yesterday I had read, "Hit Avatars?" "No, too difficult." to a supergroup of superhumans who just wiped out Dls and spheres in one awesome fell swoop. In my history of playing Lusternia, I personally only ever participated in one Avatar raid, can only think of three that ever happened (and fairly sure I am being generous there), and only because it was forced upon the playerbase for that super retarded hai'gloh event (which I definitely think the admin should never repeat ever again. NEVER AGAIN YOU HEAR ME.).
It would be nice if all the smob/avatar planes were on equal footing, though I doubt this will ever happen. You just have to be exceptional.
I dunno, it might have been a little more time than that? I don't think it was one of the ones where they wiped all of the spheres out- we ended up shooing them off and saving those last two! H-hooray?? The speed of it, that's what it felt like at least. We were definitely not dragging our feet on the getting up there part, but they were almost all dead by the time we engaged the attacking group. Shrug! I do not have a perfect memory, but it did seem to happen very much too fast.
Unknown2011-07-22 20:00:11
Ethereal is a fortress... with no lock on the gate.
Unknown2011-07-22 20:02:16
To be fair, at least these days, it's a gate that slowly opens now.
I personally think that Hallifax could have done a lot more to prevent the spheres from dying. They did call shrines and effects, but they didn't even try to keep the shrine up. Once we took that down (and it was mostly Viynain who did that, 1 person. You can kill 1 person), it was fairly easy to walk around Continuum. The fact that Celest/Glom raided DL's first should have alerted Hallifax and SW that their mobs might be next, so they should prep just in case. SW did this (probably because Sidd was running around inside), but Hallifax didn't. Halli even let us build yet another shrine on their plane, heh, and failed to take it down.
I feel like there's only so much that the admin can do before you have to think, "Hmm, I think there's something we're doing wrong".
I personally think that Hallifax could have done a lot more to prevent the spheres from dying. They did call shrines and effects, but they didn't even try to keep the shrine up. Once we took that down (and it was mostly Viynain who did that, 1 person. You can kill 1 person), it was fairly easy to walk around Continuum. The fact that Celest/Glom raided DL's first should have alerted Hallifax and SW that their mobs might be next, so they should prep just in case. SW did this (probably because Sidd was running around inside), but Hallifax didn't. Halli even let us build yet another shrine on their plane, heh, and failed to take it down.
I feel like there's only so much that the admin can do before you have to think, "Hmm, I think there's something we're doing wrong".
Aison2011-07-22 20:02:34
QUOTE (Phoebus @ Jul 22 2011, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I dunno, it might have been a little more time than that? I don't think it was one of the ones where they wiped all of the spheres out- we ended up shooing them off and saving those last two! H-hooray?? The speed of it, that's what it felt like at least. We were definitely not dragging our feet on the getting up there part, but they were almost all dead by the time we engaged the attacking group. Shrug! I do not have a perfect memory, but it did seem to happen very much too fast.
Blargh you give me timestamps and you give them to me nao!
Or at least someone should be able to post the timestamps. Whoever the guardians are in Hallifax. I'm a noob so I don't know/can't get it right/really can't be assed to care about about gaudi/halli atm.
Unknown2011-07-22 20:03:35
QUOTE (Aison @ Jul 22 2011, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Blargh you give me timestamps and you give them to me nao!
Or at least someone should be able to post the timestamps. Whoever the guardians are in Hallifax. I'm a noob so I don't know/can't get it right/really can't be assed to care about about gaudi/halli atm.
Or at least someone should be able to post the timestamps. Whoever the guardians are in Hallifax. I'm a noob so I don't know/can't get it right/really can't be assed to care about about gaudi/halli atm.
Dude I can't get timestamps from back then! They are looong gone. I have no idea how quickly the most recent raid went, I was playing Mass Effect, trying to seduce sexy aliens.
Talan2011-07-22 20:09:43
Well, alright. I can really understand the frustrations in the aftermath of a raid. I agree that the spheres could hit harder. As far as I saw, the spheres were not defending each other. I'm told this is because of the order in which we attacked them. Maybe I am wrong here, I was not focusing on spheres, but I didn't really notice a lot of extra damage coming from anywhere all of a sudden as we see when Ashtorath shows up to defend Baalphegar, for example. We spent a lot of time on Continuum, more than an hour... the same or more than the time we spent on Nil, but in comparison, more of the time was spent navigating than fighting the smobs. To me, they did seem noticeably stronger than the last time I attended a raid on Continuum, and there is no denying that a ton of people died.
The claims you make about defenders are only partially accurate. I mean no offense when I say this, but despite having 15 defenders, I could not say that the raid was defended particularly well. There were times when we were fighting a sphere in an aeromancer demesne and the demesne wasn't hitting us. Apart from one time when the defending group was dug in by Opal, we were never really diverted... we were able to basically walk through with little interference. When it did come to a fight between the groups, the raiding group was still larger than the defending group. In the past, raiding parties have most certainly been thwarted on Continuum - it is by no means impossible.
As you saw, the DL raid was not disrupted by only 5-6 defenders. In the past, where they have been, the raiding party was smaller, and the defending party was bolstered by shrines and discretionaries. In the most recent raid, defenders entered and were subject to the same room attacks as the raiders, and died in turn. This is one of the detriments to having stronger mobs. The ethereal forests have the same issue in terms of being at great risk entering the room, even not taking into account the attacks of the raiders. There has also been a learning curve for us in terms of raiding Nil and we have improved with each attempt.
Recent attempts where we have failed -spectacularly- have been due to our errors, more than to defenders' efforts. In previous attempts we have targeted the wrong thing, calling a third DL down on our room, or else not kept up with the archdemons. These are the things that lead to our failures, and we have taken pains to correct them. I will agree with you that Continuum, owing to less damage dealt by the spheres, has a far broader margin for error, which results in raiding parties having more success.
I do not agree that smob raids stand as the sole cause for driving people out of the game. Maybe they might act as the straw that breaks the camel's back, but I do not feel like a couple of days of essence bashing in the aftermath is enough to drive players away. I know that there exist players who only feel like they win if they cause others to stop playing - but that sort of griefing is very different to organization level raids. I do not believe that any member of the raiding party last night was there with the goal of driving Hallifax players out of the game.
I am one who always feels vaguely lousy after these raids, even while ic-ly highfiving and butt-patting my cohorts on a job well done. There needs to be conflict, but I think all players know that it sucks to be on the losing side. It sure sucked the last time our Avatars were killed. It sucks when a lot of people vanish in the immediate aftermath because they don't want to spend a day or more doing nothing but running the gauntlet through enemies on the elemental planes. The real punishment with these cosmic/ethereal conflicts is that you dictate how your enemies have to spend their game time in the aftermath. I have always thought that making adjustments here would be better in terms of protecting players' enjoyment of the game in the face of large scale conflict.
The claims you make about defenders are only partially accurate. I mean no offense when I say this, but despite having 15 defenders, I could not say that the raid was defended particularly well. There were times when we were fighting a sphere in an aeromancer demesne and the demesne wasn't hitting us. Apart from one time when the defending group was dug in by Opal, we were never really diverted... we were able to basically walk through with little interference. When it did come to a fight between the groups, the raiding group was still larger than the defending group. In the past, raiding parties have most certainly been thwarted on Continuum - it is by no means impossible.
As you saw, the DL raid was not disrupted by only 5-6 defenders. In the past, where they have been, the raiding party was smaller, and the defending party was bolstered by shrines and discretionaries. In the most recent raid, defenders entered and were subject to the same room attacks as the raiders, and died in turn. This is one of the detriments to having stronger mobs. The ethereal forests have the same issue in terms of being at great risk entering the room, even not taking into account the attacks of the raiders. There has also been a learning curve for us in terms of raiding Nil and we have improved with each attempt.
Recent attempts where we have failed -spectacularly- have been due to our errors, more than to defenders' efforts. In previous attempts we have targeted the wrong thing, calling a third DL down on our room, or else not kept up with the archdemons. These are the things that lead to our failures, and we have taken pains to correct them. I will agree with you that Continuum, owing to less damage dealt by the spheres, has a far broader margin for error, which results in raiding parties having more success.
I do not agree that smob raids stand as the sole cause for driving people out of the game. Maybe they might act as the straw that breaks the camel's back, but I do not feel like a couple of days of essence bashing in the aftermath is enough to drive players away. I know that there exist players who only feel like they win if they cause others to stop playing - but that sort of griefing is very different to organization level raids. I do not believe that any member of the raiding party last night was there with the goal of driving Hallifax players out of the game.
I am one who always feels vaguely lousy after these raids, even while ic-ly highfiving and butt-patting my cohorts on a job well done. There needs to be conflict, but I think all players know that it sucks to be on the losing side. It sure sucked the last time our Avatars were killed. It sucks when a lot of people vanish in the immediate aftermath because they don't want to spend a day or more doing nothing but running the gauntlet through enemies on the elemental planes. The real punishment with these cosmic/ethereal conflicts is that you dictate how your enemies have to spend their game time in the aftermath. I have always thought that making adjustments here would be better in terms of protecting players' enjoyment of the game in the face of large scale conflict.
Unknown2011-07-22 20:13:37
QUOTE (Talan @ Jul 22 2011, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, alright. I can really understand the frustrations in the aftermath of a raid. I agree that the spheres could hit harder. As far as I saw, the spheres were not defending each other. I'm told this is because of the order in which we attacked them. Maybe I am wrong here, I was not focusing on spheres, but I didn't really notice a lot of extra damage coming from anywhere all of a sudden as we see when Ashtorath shows up to defend Baalphegar, for example. We spent a lot of time on Continuum, more than an hour... the same or more than the time we spent on Nil, but in comparison, more of the time was spent navigating than fighting the smobs. To me, they did seem noticeably stronger than the last time I attended a raid on Continuum, and there is no denying that a ton of people died.
The claims you make about defenders are only partially accurate. I mean no offense when I say this, but despite having 15 defenders, I could not say that the raid was defended particularly well. There were times when we were fighting a sphere in an aeromancer demesne and the demesne wasn't hitting us. Apart from one time when the defending group was dug in by Opal, we were never really diverted... we were able to basically walk through with little interference. When it did come to a fight between the groups, the raiding group was still larger than the defending group. In the past, raiding parties have most certainly been thwarted on Continuum - it is by no means impossible.
As you saw, the DL raid was not disrupted by only 5-6 defenders. In the past, where they have been, the raiding party was smaller, and the defending party was bolstered by shrines and discretionaries. In the most recent raid, defenders entered and were subject to the same room attacks as the raiders, and died in turn. This is one of the detriments to having stronger mobs. The ethereal forests have the same issue in terms of being at great risk entering the room, even not taking into account the attacks of the raiders. There has also been a learning curve for us in terms of raiding Nil and we have improved with each attempt.
Recent attempts where we have failed -spectacularly- have been due to our errors, more than to defenders' efforts. In previous attempts we have targeted the wrong thing, calling a third DL down on our room, or else not kept up with the archdemons. These are the things that lead to our failures, and we have taken pains to correct them. I will agree with you that Continuum, owing to less damage dealt by the spheres, has a far broader margin for error, which results in raiding parties having more success.
I do not agree that smob raids stand as the sole cause for driving people out of the game. Maybe they might act as the straw that breaks the camel's back, but I do not feel like a couple of days of essence bashing in the aftermath is enough to drive players away. I know that there exist players who only feel like they win if they cause others to stop playing - but that sort of griefing is very different to organization level raids. I do not believe that any member of the raiding party last night was there with the goal of driving Hallifax players out of the game.
I am one who always feels vaguely lousy after these raids, even while ic-ly highfiving and butt-patting my cohorts on a job well done. There needs to be conflict, but I think all players know that it sucks to be on the losing side. It sure sucked the last time our Avatars were killed. It sucks when a lot of people vanish in the immediate aftermath because they don't want to spend a day or more doing nothing but running the gauntlet through enemies on the elemental planes. The real punishment with these cosmic/ethereal conflicts is that you dictate how your enemies have to spend their game time in the aftermath. I have always thought that making adjustments here would be better in terms of protecting players' enjoyment of the game in the face of large scale conflict.
The claims you make about defenders are only partially accurate. I mean no offense when I say this, but despite having 15 defenders, I could not say that the raid was defended particularly well. There were times when we were fighting a sphere in an aeromancer demesne and the demesne wasn't hitting us. Apart from one time when the defending group was dug in by Opal, we were never really diverted... we were able to basically walk through with little interference. When it did come to a fight between the groups, the raiding group was still larger than the defending group. In the past, raiding parties have most certainly been thwarted on Continuum - it is by no means impossible.
As you saw, the DL raid was not disrupted by only 5-6 defenders. In the past, where they have been, the raiding party was smaller, and the defending party was bolstered by shrines and discretionaries. In the most recent raid, defenders entered and were subject to the same room attacks as the raiders, and died in turn. This is one of the detriments to having stronger mobs. The ethereal forests have the same issue in terms of being at great risk entering the room, even not taking into account the attacks of the raiders. There has also been a learning curve for us in terms of raiding Nil and we have improved with each attempt.
Recent attempts where we have failed -spectacularly- have been due to our errors, more than to defenders' efforts. In previous attempts we have targeted the wrong thing, calling a third DL down on our room, or else not kept up with the archdemons. These are the things that lead to our failures, and we have taken pains to correct them. I will agree with you that Continuum, owing to less damage dealt by the spheres, has a far broader margin for error, which results in raiding parties having more success.
I do not agree that smob raids stand as the sole cause for driving people out of the game. Maybe they might act as the straw that breaks the camel's back, but I do not feel like a couple of days of essence bashing in the aftermath is enough to drive players away. I know that there exist players who only feel like they win if they cause others to stop playing - but that sort of griefing is very different to organization level raids. I do not believe that any member of the raiding party last night was there with the goal of driving Hallifax players out of the game.
I am one who always feels vaguely lousy after these raids, even while ic-ly highfiving and butt-patting my cohorts on a job well done. There needs to be conflict, but I think all players know that it sucks to be on the losing side. It sure sucked the last time our Avatars were killed. It sucks when a lot of people vanish in the immediate aftermath because they don't want to spend a day or more doing nothing but running the gauntlet through enemies on the elemental planes. The real punishment with these cosmic/ethereal conflicts is that you dictate how your enemies have to spend their game time in the aftermath. I have always thought that making adjustments here would be better in terms of protecting players' enjoyment of the game in the face of large scale conflict.
I've decided that I like you.
Nienla2011-07-22 20:16:19
The spheres seemed to be hitting pretty hard, and I'm going to be perfectly forthcoming by saying that any buffs to the Cosmic Planes or Ethereal Planes in regards to boss mobs is unneeded. What, with crazy AoE counters, assists, self-healing, free discretionaries, shrine powers like Invasion, Distort, Wrath, passive insanity from enemy territory. Raiding is hard enough already, and easy enough to where the defenders can mostly sit at their nexus and raise powers and then not do a single thing because insanity will start eating away at the raiders.
Eventru2011-07-22 20:18:54
I rather thought this was finished last night.
Yes, there was a bug - one of more than two dozen variables was off, which rendered the defending spheres (and fleshpots) very weak. Collectively, 3 spheres do more damage than Luciphage or Elohora, or even Methrenton/Shakiniel and similar mobs - albeit (probably) over more attacks so it's difficult to directly compare, but room-wides, etc would do more as 3 than 2 would, and so forth.
As you mention, you've brought them being weak up before. Blame me - I passed off your uninformed ramblings (which last night took several different forms - at first you insisted they have never defended, then you said someone said only 2 spheres fight at once) as just that - uninformed ramblings. Indeed, your complaints have never been based in observed, first-hand fact but instead conjecture and heresay. That's not something to spend more than a few minutes of my time chasing after - sorry. If I did that every time someone had a complaint with changing and second-hand basis, I'd never get done with the Aquamancers, nonetheless outside of Celest.
Estarra finally found the bug, yes - and it was promptly fixed, with 3 or so spheres left alive.
Much as your arguments on envoys, I'm finding your post here pretty weak and empty. Firstly, it's based in the belief that the weak defenders is normal (which you know, full well, they are not) and, secondly, you're supported by someone who states that, within the 5 minutes it takes you to group up, all the spheres are dead.
To that end, I've pulled Hallifax's power log (which both of you have available) from the point at which you clearly perceived the potential of a raid (and so could have been on high alert, so to speak) to the death of the last sphere.
Indeed, for those who lack in basic math skills, there is a 7 minute and 21 second gap (nearly 50% more than the suggested group time of 5 minutes) between Morbo raising Distort and Ripple (oft complained about discretionary powers, I note) and the death of the first sphere.
It is another 9 minutes before the next sphere falls and, between the raising of discretionaries (I imagine when the attack began) and the death of the last sphere, a full hour and four minutes and thirteen seconds pass.
While I'm entirely sympathetic to the fact your defending spheres were only doing a small portion of the damage they should have been, if you're going to come to the forums with wild and, frankly, tragically baseless accusations - particularly when you use my name in the accusatory manner you have - I strongly suggest you make reasoned, fact-based, supportable arguments, not rantings that rely not on quantifiable proof but wild hyperboles rooted in emotion, not reality.
Comparatively, I've pulled Magnagora's power logs, so we can compare timestamps on the deaths of the demon lords.
The best I can assume is the first archdemon is around the time the fight with Gorgulu began (the first they killed).
I also note that, during the attack on Luciphage, they took more than 600% of his health before he finally died (due to a very common life drain attack, which after discussion was brought down in line with reason). So you can probably shave 5 or 6 minutes off his time. Even without that, it was a mere 37 minutes and 31 seconds or so for them to kill all of the Demon Lords, a reasonable length of time for a raid.
If we wish to discuss reason and length of time to kill, we certainly can - however the Spheres fall on the far side of that, costing nearly twice the amount of time it took to clear Nil of the Demon Lords. And I note, these were no pups, but seasoned raiders from three organizations teaming together with more than 40 people throwing themselves like candy.
Were the spheres defenders weaker? Yes. Were they fixed? Yes. Will it happen again? Newp.
As I've said - I'm deeply sympathetic, I've been there (more than you can imagine) and I've watched Celest and other organizations be there, too.
However, I suggest before complaining, you focus on real, quantifiable data, not wild conjecture. It's the difference between a valid point and being perceived as ranting.
A big part of defending is learning to work together to fight off attackers - you have massive advantages as the defenders, but tendencies to fumble, wander around or get distracted do wonders for breaking apart defensive blockades.
When you saw the Demon Lords go down, you should've known you or Serenwilde were next, and had a shrine, meld, etc waiting - because that shrine they put down did a lot of harm to your defenses, and you just weren't prepared to face it.
Yes, there was a bug - one of more than two dozen variables was off, which rendered the defending spheres (and fleshpots) very weak. Collectively, 3 spheres do more damage than Luciphage or Elohora, or even Methrenton/Shakiniel and similar mobs - albeit (probably) over more attacks so it's difficult to directly compare, but room-wides, etc would do more as 3 than 2 would, and so forth.
As you mention, you've brought them being weak up before. Blame me - I passed off your uninformed ramblings (which last night took several different forms - at first you insisted they have never defended, then you said someone said only 2 spheres fight at once) as just that - uninformed ramblings. Indeed, your complaints have never been based in observed, first-hand fact but instead conjecture and heresay. That's not something to spend more than a few minutes of my time chasing after - sorry. If I did that every time someone had a complaint with changing and second-hand basis, I'd never get done with the Aquamancers, nonetheless outside of Celest.
Estarra finally found the bug, yes - and it was promptly fixed, with 3 or so spheres left alive.
Much as your arguments on envoys, I'm finding your post here pretty weak and empty. Firstly, it's based in the belief that the weak defenders is normal (which you know, full well, they are not) and, secondly, you're supported by someone who states that, within the 5 minutes it takes you to group up, all the spheres are dead.
To that end, I've pulled Hallifax's power log (which both of you have available) from the point at which you clearly perceived the potential of a raid (and so could have been on high alert, so to speak) to the death of the last sphere.
Indeed, for those who lack in basic math skills, there is a 7 minute and 21 second gap (nearly 50% more than the suggested group time of 5 minutes) between Morbo raising Distort and Ripple (oft complained about discretionary powers, I note) and the death of the first sphere.
It is another 9 minutes before the next sphere falls and, between the raising of discretionaries (I imagine when the attack began) and the death of the last sphere, a full hour and four minutes and thirteen seconds pass.
QUOTE
2011/07/22 04:15:34 - Someone stole 750 power by killing the Opal Sphere of
Symmetrical Accord
2011/07/22 04:11:09 - Shuyin stole 750 power by killing the Ruby Sphere of
Immutable Syntagmatics
2011/07/22 04:07:43 - Malicia stole 750 power by killing the Sapphire Sphere of
Aesthetic Apprehension
2011/07/22 04:05:09 - Shuyin stole 750 power by killing the Emerald Sphere of
Chronological Paradigm
2011/07/22 04:01:56 - Someone stole 750 power by killing the Amethyst Sphere of
Transcendental Originations
2011/07/22 03:58:50 - Shuyin stole 750 power by killing the Bloodstone Sphere of
Quantitative Symmetry
2011/07/22 03:54:27 - Sidd stole 750 power by killing the Onyx Sphere of
Quantized Equilibrium
2011/07/22 03:45:35 - Druken stole 750 power by killing the Beryl Sphere of
Vindicated Convergence
2011/07/22 03:38:43 - Talan stole 750 power by killing the Garnet Sphere of
Precise Veracity
2011/07/22 03:33:01 - Shakaya stole 750 power by killing the Jade Sphere of
Temporal Existence
2011/07/22 03:26:18 - Malicia stole 750 power by killing the Turquoise Sphere of
Flux Transmutation
2011/07/22 03:18:26 - Jarael stole 750 power by killing the Diamond Sphere of
Axiomatic Supremacy
2011/07/22 03:11:05 - Morbo drained 0 power to cause the Cosmic Plane of
Continuum to ripple.
2011/07/22 03:11:05 - The Conquest Pool has covered an expense of 0 power.
2011/07/22 03:11:03 - Morbo drained 0 power to raise a distortion field in the
Continuum.
2011/07/22 03:11:03 - The Conquest Pool has covered an expense of 0 power.
Symmetrical Accord
2011/07/22 04:11:09 - Shuyin stole 750 power by killing the Ruby Sphere of
Immutable Syntagmatics
2011/07/22 04:07:43 - Malicia stole 750 power by killing the Sapphire Sphere of
Aesthetic Apprehension
2011/07/22 04:05:09 - Shuyin stole 750 power by killing the Emerald Sphere of
Chronological Paradigm
2011/07/22 04:01:56 - Someone stole 750 power by killing the Amethyst Sphere of
Transcendental Originations
2011/07/22 03:58:50 - Shuyin stole 750 power by killing the Bloodstone Sphere of
Quantitative Symmetry
2011/07/22 03:54:27 - Sidd stole 750 power by killing the Onyx Sphere of
Quantized Equilibrium
2011/07/22 03:45:35 - Druken stole 750 power by killing the Beryl Sphere of
Vindicated Convergence
2011/07/22 03:38:43 - Talan stole 750 power by killing the Garnet Sphere of
Precise Veracity
2011/07/22 03:33:01 - Shakaya stole 750 power by killing the Jade Sphere of
Temporal Existence
2011/07/22 03:26:18 - Malicia stole 750 power by killing the Turquoise Sphere of
Flux Transmutation
2011/07/22 03:18:26 - Jarael stole 750 power by killing the Diamond Sphere of
Axiomatic Supremacy
2011/07/22 03:11:05 - Morbo drained 0 power to cause the Cosmic Plane of
Continuum to ripple.
2011/07/22 03:11:05 - The Conquest Pool has covered an expense of 0 power.
2011/07/22 03:11:03 - Morbo drained 0 power to raise a distortion field in the
Continuum.
2011/07/22 03:11:03 - The Conquest Pool has covered an expense of 0 power.
While I'm entirely sympathetic to the fact your defending spheres were only doing a small portion of the damage they should have been, if you're going to come to the forums with wild and, frankly, tragically baseless accusations - particularly when you use my name in the accusatory manner you have - I strongly suggest you make reasoned, fact-based, supportable arguments, not rantings that rely not on quantifiable proof but wild hyperboles rooted in emotion, not reality.
Comparatively, I've pulled Magnagora's power logs, so we can compare timestamps on the deaths of the demon lords.
QUOTE
2011/07/22 02:43:56 - Aeral stole 5000 power by killing Luciphage
2011/07/22 02:43:05 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:43:01 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:42:48 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:42:04 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:41:09 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:40:26 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:40:06 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:39:39 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:39:37 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:39:31 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:39:03 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:59 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:56 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:53 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:39 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:23 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:19 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:03 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:45 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:28 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:24 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:06 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:03 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:36:38 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:36:35 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:35:54 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:35:17 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:35:10 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:34:36 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:34:32 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:34:05 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:55 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:50 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:44 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:28 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:09 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:58 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:54 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:37 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:30 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:17 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:31:46 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:31:38 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:31:36 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:30:29 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:30:29 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:29:24 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:29:11 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:29:07 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:28:23 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:28:12 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:28:12 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:27:31 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:27:29 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:27:13 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:25:51 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:25:40 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:25:32 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:25:16 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:58 - Alacardael stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:56 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:53 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:53 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:49 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:45 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:43 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:23:09 - Someone stole 3 power by killing a demon
2011/07/22 02:22:37 - Kelly stole 1 power by killing an imp
2011/07/22 02:22:30 - Kelly stole 1 power by killing an imp
2011/07/22 02:21:53 - Sidd stole 1000 power by killing Nifilhema
2011/07/22 02:20:40 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:19:59 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:19:49 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:19:36 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:19:20 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:18:56 - Viynain stole 1000 power by killing Ashtorath
2011/07/22 02:18:10 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:51 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:49 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:41 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:40 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:35 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:22 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:19 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:18 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:12 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:05 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:54 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:52 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:33 - Estwald drained 0 power to raise a distortion field in the
Land of the Demon Lords.
2011/07/22 02:16:33 - The Conquest Pool has covered an expense of 0 power.
2011/07/22 02:16:31 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:26 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:22 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:11 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:05 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:01 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:57 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:36 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:29 - Shuyin stole 1000 power by killing Baalphegar
2011/07/22 02:15:29 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:25 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:10 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:05 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:40 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:31 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:16 - Narynth stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:13 - Narynth stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:11 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:06 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:05 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:04 - Alacardael stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:00 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:47 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:21 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:16 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:13 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:11 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:49 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:37 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:27 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:20 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:05 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:02 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:11:54 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:11:50 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:11:20 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:11:12 - Estwald drained 0 power to sing a song of inspiration in
the Land of the Demon Lords.
2011/07/22 02:11:12 - The Conquest Pool has covered an expense of 0 power.
2011/07/22 02:10:51 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:10:47 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:09:38 - Shuyin stole 1000 power by killing Gorgulu
2011/07/22 02:08:54 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:08:40 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:08:29 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:08:06 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:07:48 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:07:44 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:07:11 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:07:02 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:06:48 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:06:25 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:06:20 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:43:05 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:43:01 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:42:48 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:42:04 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:41:09 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:40:26 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:40:06 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:39:39 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:39:37 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:39:31 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:39:03 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:59 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:56 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:53 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:39 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:23 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:19 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:38:03 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:45 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:28 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:24 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:06 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:37:03 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:36:38 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:36:35 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:35:54 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:35:17 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:35:10 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:34:36 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:34:32 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:34:05 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:55 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:50 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:44 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:28 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:33:09 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:58 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:54 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:37 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:30 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:32:17 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:31:46 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:31:38 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:31:36 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:30:29 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:30:29 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:29:24 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:29:11 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:29:07 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:28:23 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:28:12 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:28:12 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:27:31 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:27:29 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:27:13 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:25:51 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:25:40 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:25:32 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:25:16 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:58 - Alacardael stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:56 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:53 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:53 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:49 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:45 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:24:43 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:23:09 - Someone stole 3 power by killing a demon
2011/07/22 02:22:37 - Kelly stole 1 power by killing an imp
2011/07/22 02:22:30 - Kelly stole 1 power by killing an imp
2011/07/22 02:21:53 - Sidd stole 1000 power by killing Nifilhema
2011/07/22 02:20:40 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:19:59 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:19:49 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:19:36 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:19:20 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:18:56 - Viynain stole 1000 power by killing Ashtorath
2011/07/22 02:18:10 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:51 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:49 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:41 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:40 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:35 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:22 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:19 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:18 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:12 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:17:05 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:54 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:52 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:33 - Estwald drained 0 power to raise a distortion field in the
Land of the Demon Lords.
2011/07/22 02:16:33 - The Conquest Pool has covered an expense of 0 power.
2011/07/22 02:16:31 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:26 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:22 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:11 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:05 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:16:01 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:57 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:36 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:29 - Shuyin stole 1000 power by killing Baalphegar
2011/07/22 02:15:29 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:25 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:10 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:15:05 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:40 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:31 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:16 - Narynth stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:13 - Narynth stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:11 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:06 - Talan stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:05 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:04 - Alacardael stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:14:00 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:47 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:21 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:16 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:13 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:13:11 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:49 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:37 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:27 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:20 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:05 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:12:02 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:11:54 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:11:50 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:11:20 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:11:12 - Estwald drained 0 power to sing a song of inspiration in
the Land of the Demon Lords.
2011/07/22 02:11:12 - The Conquest Pool has covered an expense of 0 power.
2011/07/22 02:10:51 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:10:47 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:09:38 - Shuyin stole 1000 power by killing Gorgulu
2011/07/22 02:08:54 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:08:40 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:08:29 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:08:06 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:07:48 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:07:44 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:07:11 - Viynain stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:07:02 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:06:48 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:06:25 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
2011/07/22 02:06:20 - Someone stole 5 power by killing an archdemon
The best I can assume is the first archdemon is around the time the fight with Gorgulu began (the first they killed).
I also note that, during the attack on Luciphage, they took more than 600% of his health before he finally died (due to a very common life drain attack, which after discussion was brought down in line with reason). So you can probably shave 5 or 6 minutes off his time. Even without that, it was a mere 37 minutes and 31 seconds or so for them to kill all of the Demon Lords, a reasonable length of time for a raid.
If we wish to discuss reason and length of time to kill, we certainly can - however the Spheres fall on the far side of that, costing nearly twice the amount of time it took to clear Nil of the Demon Lords. And I note, these were no pups, but seasoned raiders from three organizations teaming together with more than 40 people throwing themselves like candy.
Were the spheres defenders weaker? Yes. Were they fixed? Yes. Will it happen again? Newp.
As I've said - I'm deeply sympathetic, I've been there (more than you can imagine) and I've watched Celest and other organizations be there, too.
However, I suggest before complaining, you focus on real, quantifiable data, not wild conjecture. It's the difference between a valid point and being perceived as ranting.
A big part of defending is learning to work together to fight off attackers - you have massive advantages as the defenders, but tendencies to fumble, wander around or get distracted do wonders for breaking apart defensive blockades.
When you saw the Demon Lords go down, you should've known you or Serenwilde were next, and had a shrine, meld, etc waiting - because that shrine they put down did a lot of harm to your defenses, and you just weren't prepared to face it.
Aison2011-07-22 20:21:04
QUOTE (Phoebus @ Jul 22 2011, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dude I can't get timestamps from back then! They are looong gone. I have no idea how quickly the most recent raid went, I was playing Mass Effect, trying to seduce sexy aliens.
You can view logs for up to 6 days! Just readlog... um...airplane...
edit: nvm someone went and did it1
Morbo2011-07-22 20:23:47
I'm not suggesting that you guys are intentionally trying to grief, or that you are being unfair in raiding us. I am suggesting that the system is unfair because it is so much more difficult to defend spheres than it is to defend demonlords.
Yes, there are things we could have done better. We aren't well trained with spheres, or finding break points. We don't have a super elite force of top tier combatants like glomdoring and celest, we're a new city without a ton of help. However we can't "divert you" There are no paths to block to stop you from getting from one spheres to any other spheres, there isn't a choke point on continuum. This same size of group operating in the same way could have turned away the raids on the demonlords I think, or at least had significant impact. However, had no effect on the spheres. We had Continuum melded (I believe Shedrin melded. We spotted the shrine before the raid, and were working on finding break points, but couldn't. You could have noticed five or six of us running around on Continuum trying to get defenses ready.
To summarize, I do not believe cosmic should be impossible to raid, I think Demonlords and Supernals are just about the right level of difficulty, and avatar are too difficult and spheres/fleshpots are too easy. They should just be cloned so that every cosmic plane has 5 fairly strong smobs, or you could equalize them to avatars if you wanted though I think that is too difficult.
Yes, there are things we could have done better. We aren't well trained with spheres, or finding break points. We don't have a super elite force of top tier combatants like glomdoring and celest, we're a new city without a ton of help. However we can't "divert you" There are no paths to block to stop you from getting from one spheres to any other spheres, there isn't a choke point on continuum. This same size of group operating in the same way could have turned away the raids on the demonlords I think, or at least had significant impact. However, had no effect on the spheres. We had Continuum melded (I believe Shedrin melded. We spotted the shrine before the raid, and were working on finding break points, but couldn't. You could have noticed five or six of us running around on Continuum trying to get defenses ready.
To summarize, I do not believe cosmic should be impossible to raid, I think Demonlords and Supernals are just about the right level of difficulty, and avatar are too difficult and spheres/fleshpots are too easy. They should just be cloned so that every cosmic plane has 5 fairly strong smobs, or you could equalize them to avatars if you wanted though I think that is too difficult.
Eventru2011-07-22 20:25:39
To take a page from Xenthos' book - So the spheres should take half as long to kill as they do now, if I understand correctly?
The spheres are difficult enough, I suspect, with the bug repaired - there's a method to killing them, but it takes longer, there's more of them and, collectively, they'll deal out more damage and have more health to eat through than any other org in the game. (Though it's all pretty close together in the end)
While your spheres are no Avatars, they are in the realm of difficult and might rely a little more on defenders than Demon Lords.
Still, the same group that turned the Demon Lords into mulch in 30 minutes (despite a big bug) took an hour to eat through the Spheres (weak as they were!). This can't be ignored nor brushed over - the problem here falls mostly on the shoulders of Hallifax, and you all need to learn to defend. Everyone else does - you should, too.
The spheres are difficult enough, I suspect, with the bug repaired - there's a method to killing them, but it takes longer, there's more of them and, collectively, they'll deal out more damage and have more health to eat through than any other org in the game. (Though it's all pretty close together in the end)
While your spheres are no Avatars, they are in the realm of difficult and might rely a little more on defenders than Demon Lords.
Still, the same group that turned the Demon Lords into mulch in 30 minutes (despite a big bug) took an hour to eat through the Spheres (weak as they were!). This can't be ignored nor brushed over - the problem here falls mostly on the shoulders of Hallifax, and you all need to learn to defend. Everyone else does - you should, too.
