This ability is amazing.

Amazing.

Amazing



How can it screw monks? There is no possible way your bashing can be less effective than it was previously; there is nothing that will lower damage from what you did before. It's definitely still a buff.

You cannot measure by just your bashing, if my bashing stays the same and everyone else triples I am still a worse basher in the whole picture right?



Thats a weevil I realize but the idea is that same. My first hit killed it, so... why doesnt the energy from the next two hits get stored (including their crit chance?). The only other guild with this would be 1 handed warriors, but guess what if their first hit kills it, the second hit (which can hit a second mob) still has the energy stored! Monks do the lowest damage hit for hit and now get the least bonus from damageshift. Combine these with that we cannot change targets in bashing (like 1 handers auto do), the damage type changes that made knights and monks worse off on that front, and the fact so many mobs resist physical damage... and you have the equation for poor bashing. Did I mention that casters classes already had a direct damage buff (damage rune) that monks/warriors cannot replicate equally well even for much higher costs?

If there is a change in the works for monks to fix this discrepency (auto changing targets maybe? Or storing energy from the failed attacks?) then my hat is off to whoever thought about it. Otherwise, we saw the least gain while the rest of the basin saw huge leaps (specially since casters can now use beast to raze while I need to give up 33% of my attacks for that same raze).

Except caster bashing didn't "triple", and monks and 1-handers still did get a buff from the change, even if it's not as large. Which is fine, because there was already an existing discrepancy between monk/1-hander and caster bashing.

While this is certainly a buff to casters, in my admittedly small testing, it's not a huge buff. Enough to be noticeable and usable, but it's hardly going to make casters suddenly crazy awesome bashing machines that are suddenly bashing twice as fast as they used to. I personally noticed about a 10-15% increase in overall bashing speed, though through an admittedly small trial.



Damage resistances/weaknesses/types are an entirely orthogonal issue. For the rest, though, I'd wager you're still doing on-average per attack, assuming a high level (let's say demigod) relatively equal everything that is really controllable (which is kind of annoying because of some very different things that affect damage for each).

1-handers got a huge buff, only monks lose out on the other attacks, 1-handers attack will simply hit the next mob of the same name. And this discrepancy is often spoke of but have you actually checked it? I was routinely outbashed by casters, anything with destruction, and warriors. When you consider that bashing for monks has continually been nerfed even when they were not a problem it becomes a problem.



The damage types still have to be considered because even if you said we did the same damage, you can freely change yours while those who made the mistake of buying weapon runes cannot adjust theirs. In equal damage output you will still outpace me if you have any form of tuning or a second attack.

EDIT: Someone asked for the nerfs I mean, and I consider it a bashing nerf if it made others noticably faster.
1) Forms will not hit the next mob of the same name in line.
2) -2 mo if you change targets, which effects speed.
3) Damage resist/weakness to mobs where many resist physical and we, unlike those who got a few hundred credits as a skill, cannot change damage type.
4) Raze was given to beasts, this is much better because it doesnt require you to give up any portion of your offense to raze.
5) Damageshift doesnt save the extra attacks.

Honestly I will leave this topic sit for a few. Lets give you some test data. I did 252 hit per hand, 452 per kick against a gargoul. A garghoul at the time had between 6500-6700 health. Now your attack lets say does 1200. you will kill it in 5 hits no crit. I will kill it in roughly the same. but my first hit crits and kills it in a combo I save the other X times 252 damage. Your first hit kills it, you get X times 1200 damage. When you hit something you are likely to kill it again, I am far from it. See where I am coming from? Do some math and you will find that because we relied on crits to make us even on par in many instances the fact our "stored energy" is so dismal compared to most makes us subpar in comparison.

Lots of changes for the worse for monk bashing.

Wowww that great information

I wasn't aware that monk bashing needed any boosting (perhaps compared to top-tier warrior bashing) or that not including them (because of long standing mechanics) would make them suddenly woefully bad at bashing compared to everyone else.

Edit: And while I suspect that most of that calculation is in the ballpark of correctness, there really is no way of telling these things from the outside for sure.

Just Envoy Stealth monks a 15% cutting-to-poison or blunt-to-asphyx damage mod skill and add a comparable fire damage mod to Akhkrak if you're that worried about the damage type discrepancy.

I bashed much faster and was about the same tankiness as a tattooed Psymet Aslaran compared to myself as a surged PB or BC warrior with forging runes, Drawdown, and masterplate, though I'm only level 79 or so. My impression from that is that monk bashing really isn't hurting though. It wasn't hard, so what's the point in complaining that it got easier for other people?

The damage from my hits and the garghouls health are exact names, the only ballpark was the 1400.

Yes. That was the point.

Mal, I'm not sure this is a nerf to monk bashing as much as a buff to caster-class bashing (though that is a glass half full/empty debate). I kinda agree with how Lerad framed the whole issue. All things considered, I won't be shy to put forth a damage type report for monks given these changes (it also affects my position on at least one report this cycle as well).

Granted, you framed a decent conjecture about whether monks will have as much benefit from this change. I'll admit that I'm not statistically savvy enough to make any speculation on this topic. To get anywhere, I think you would first need to track hits, misses, and crate rate accounting for nekai and kicks separately. Something to the effect of this:

http://forums.lusternia.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=668211

PS: this would be a neat future feature for M&M!

Using this data set (which I realize is unrelated) and in PURE SPECULATION, here's what monk crit data MIGHT look like if you were to track and tack into a report. I'm running under the assumption of equal distribution of 2 nekai attacks and 1 kick per form (kinda bucking the Monte Carlo fallacy).



Real data would be MUCH more useful of course. This brings me back to my original question, is it better to wear an opponent down with Nekai-like attacks to DamageShift on a kick (hopefully), or place the kick up front in a kata form to ensure damage and crit priority in a kata form.

I just noticed this post, and felt I had to laugh about it.

You do realise monks can also use beasts to raze, yes? You also realise that this raze is on a ten-second balance, yes? So you still have it far better than casters when it comes to getting around shields, in a strict superset sense.

We debated having it in combat but combat generally relates more to physical and damageshift includes magical attacks, so we decided Discipline would make RP sense (not to mention it could use more skills).

I love this.

We were able to permalink a sphere by choosing to right sphere to take advantage of weaknesses and aggressive beasts/damage shift as a group of 3 casters.

Oh it was noted I didnt include all the monk changes.... Add in...

1) Raze was moved from a mod to an action
2) Speed was nerfed.

We can easily get this done math wise Janalon if you want to look at it, I can get you some hard numbers shortly in fact.

You know how I LOVE numbers. Actually... would love to see crit frequency data on Nekai, Nekai, Kick AND Kick, Nekai, Nekai to see if there is any shift in numbers (which might support one bashing form over the other).

EDIT: And... if you are counting ALL the recent MonkNerfs, you can no longer kick out of form (though, not sure that really impacted bashing... and was more bug-like than skill downgrade).

You also don't even use 33% of your damage to raze.

Never said we did.

Ok, this was enlightening. Glad I did some testing. I have put all these in Damage Per Second because for instance warriors had the weakest hit but the fastest speed so heres what I got. Warrior DPS assumes both hits, monk DPS assumes all hits.

Monk 253.5
Bard 257.6
Mage 231.7
Instit 248.5
Wicca 192 (eq recovery was 4.5)
Illum 298.1
BM 323.4

So.... we got...

BM > illum > bard > monk > institute > mage > wiccan

These numbers are soft testing, I did not enforce conditions as that would be unrealistic to grab random people and all have the same blessings. It is worth noting however that magic runes can play a part here. So in a 1 to 1 hit ratio thats the line up. One someone crits its all out of whack. For instance if the bard gets a crit I have to crit on all 3 attacks to be below it. So while this information is confusing, interpretive, and odd... it did give me a fair bit of a picture.

Warriors hit really really fast (2.3s bal recovery). Illuminati hit like trains. And its a balancing act of quantity versus quality of crits. At the moment I will rest my case as I really do not want to get into the math of everyone. Again the above data was imperfect and inherently flawed but gave a general enough idea.

Enyalida, with actual numbers on the board we use 25% of our damage potential if we raze in form. since a hit is about 200 and kick is about 400.

Any dps test you can come up with is ultimately a tangential scope and not going to 'prove' anything overarching, FYI.

Edit: The real test is go do runs of something you have timed before, and see the difference over a long duration (hour seems to be a good benchmark). If you notice a decent gain in hunting time, I would suggest a simple thank you, and to move on. i.e. before clearing xx took yy time, now clearing xx takes <