Ok then.

I have pretty much listed most things in mind, only other things in my head are lowering ka costs of some of the mods (mind you this is my mind at 3am). Every guild has a free prone method, that is does not cost momentum. I am just looking for ours, could even be paralysis on a hit if that is better.

I'm all for increasing Nekotai Kata Diversity...

When warriors no longer need RNG wound rolls to proc affs, and their damage scales off wound levels.

When all other monk guilds get the same level of diversity.

When Psymet Pheremones no longer hard counters mages/bards.

When Acrobatics Dodge disappears.

When Kata Deflect on top of trans tattoos disappears.

The list goes on.

You want 'diversity' (read more power).

I want parity.

Both of us don't always get what we want.

Other monk guilds already do have more diversity. I'm up for changing nekotai, even with the things you mentioned (and pheremones is a harder counter to druids then mages!)

To quote Eventru: My bitter is hanging out.

Mostly because:
-sings-
Anything warriors can do, monks can do better. Monks can do anything better than them!


...

No love for monks until warriors get enough TLC.

You need to do some research for most of your comments, as they are generally wrong or not related to monks in the least.

Speak to your envoy if you feel there is an issue, but I see long time warriors doing just fine still. Thoughts like "monks do everything better" is also wrong, either you overestimate monks or you have not met the right warriors.

The above is my tame reply, I had replied to each point separately but it looked too flamey as a lot of it was "you have no idea what you are talking about do you".


With that out of the way I am open to thoughts on which prone is really the best for a MINOR hinder mo-less prone. Paralysis may be best as it DOES have a cure but it doesnt stop all other curing as the fear is with stun.

We can both summarize posts. It doesn't change anything.

If you actually took the time to read through (rather than give a snarky knee-jerk reaction), I was looking to bundle this with a reduction to Nekotai greenlock and a hard reduction to how we accumulate vessels. This isn't nor shouldn't be about monk vs. warrior. Take your vitrol elsewhere.

It's always about monk vs. warrior.

So do Nekotai.

*cough* pinchnerve *cough*

Man, I'm trying to be all subtle here, come on

Think who you're talking to. Subtle doesn't work. Direct don't even work. Rational and well reasoned discussion of mechanics and mathematical implications don't work. Nothing works. It's why I've pretty much given up on reasoning and decided to run with internet logic whenever anyone proposes any sort of monk buff while other suffering classes in the basin still lag far behind them. I'm all for decreasing the Nekotai ability to Greenlock. I'm all for reducing their vessels. Those are both needed. A wider variety of deadly low mo forms aren't. They don't need ways to snowball toward kills faster and with less buildup effort.

While I entirely enjoy your general approach to composition, I am struggling to find your central point. Your sentence "A wider variety of deadly low mo forms aren't" makes judicious use of the Emotional Appeal and Glittering Generalities propaganda techniques. With a general lack of supporting evidence in regards to the problem/solution offered in the first post of the thread, your argument is not well presented. Though, I think you generally mention that you gave up on logic and reasoning in that last rant.

Please know that the monk envoys worked to propose at least a half-dozen necessary monk-wide nerfs in the past several months. We have some more work ahead. I'd like to propose several more Nekotai specific nerfs. But my general approach is to quash OP where it can be addressed through Envoy, and fix what is broken or ineffective. That seems like balance to me, though I can only speak from my generally good track record with passing reports.

I'd like to redirect you to read the opening argument in this thread. The entire topic circulates around opening options in 3mo to 4mo forms WITHOUT buffing Nekotai to bring the guild to at least half the diversity the other monk guilds enjoy. I'm eager to hear you address the specifics about the problem/solution.

You could always refer to http://pastebin.com/PQLDipSM to educate yourself on ka action and mod costs. I'd be happy to help you better understand how momentum works. Please be respectful of the fact that the various perspectives posted to this thread are not necessarily endorsed by the guild envoy. We are only brainstorming ideas. Derailing a thread does not help the process along.

I know you are capable of more coherent arguments. In one of your previous posts you raise concern about specific issues. Please contact the warrior envoys to address issues about warrior RNG (though, the particular of those ideas might not have place in this conversation). The Pheromone report failed, and not for a well defined problem. Can you propose more effective solutions? Do so in your own thread. Likewise with Acrobatics Dodge. We won't be able to solve all these problems in this thread, as we are presently focused on Nekotai kata costs.

Apologies, Janalon. Lotta bitter, lotta frustration, lotta envoys getting nowhere for a lotta time. I know you're working on getting balance, but some of Malarious's suggestions just set me off, despite not necessarily having your endorsement. And I do understand and agree with the basic need for the issues you brought up, namely the curbing of the excessive power of Nekotai to greenlock and spam vessels. I also think that a reasonable but thoroughly analyzed and deliberated assessment of kata changes to redistribute the balance between them is a good idea too.

I let my weariness and growing sense of despair over the warrior issues, and jealousy, get the better of me. When I saw a 'we need this, which is better than before' comment in a thread about a monk guild, I reacted harshly and in a direction that was neither constructive, nor even directed at the source of my frustration - as what pressed the button wasn't something you'd said at all. Again, my apologies.

Thank you. *hug*

Also, keep in mind that while Nekotai suffer from all of their good things having high Ka cost, and low-level forms being generally weak, Shofangi's at-first-glance dearth of options falls rapidly when you realize that most of those low-Ka moves are largely ineffectual grapples, and we can't start laying the hurt down til' later on either.
/notconstructiveatallplug

And I understand where Phant's coming from with the warrior woes and lack of buffs. I just switched back to Monk despite really enjoying the Serenguard, purely for combat reasons. Warrior's just a big pile of frustrating right now, and with Monk I can at least analyze my faults and failings and come up with better solutions than "I just got the :censor: end of the stick with my dice rolls there".

But I'm not supposed to be taking this away from Jana/Mal, so how about this. Why is PinchedNerve completely discounted? It's a relatively expensive modifier, sure, but you can pull it out in second or third form and do some things with it, and Kumaki (the shofa-reliant, cheaper Shofangi copy) is -less- useful than pinchednerve in some of my forms. Guaranteeing paralysis with a connecting kick isn't half bad.

Pinched nerve isn't paralysis from what I remember. It doubles the curative balance for 250ka, -1mo. Stacks well with angknek among the many herb based affs we can give. Probably best aimed at gut for eating or chest for smoking herbs.

Although it would seem very effective, I haven't seen any combatant in the past few years use this technique (probably because they tend to aim for the regen cures to double blind/prone). Doesn't mean it isn't a well designed skill.

The kata modifier caused paralysis last time I checked it... It's not the affliction, pinchnerve, but the basic kata mod, that we're talking about.

Not that pinchnerve, THIS pinchnerve.

Oops. Forgot about that. Sure, it would work with unarmed actions. Not familiar with the proc rate off hand, but it only works with unarmed actions (punches and non-spec kicks). Kata aff mods proc on wounds. Can't say that I am familiar with the required would levels or proc rate. For the same ka cost, Nekotai will opt for Kaiga vessels on limbs. With the iffy nature of Pinch Nerve mod, most Nekotai will invest the equivalent ka into the kaiga kick mod which is surefirewin.

That being said, I'd like to switch vessels from momentum to wounds based proc as suggested elsewhere in this thread. That report will be forthcoming.

Seeing how a "prone" Nekotai report failed in the past, I won't even address this issue through envoy. First, it seems like a buff to me. Second, double tendon with maintenance is way more powerful than any penalty free prone. Third, just because other monk guilds have penalty free prones doesn't mean that Nekotai should also have it. Equal isn't always fair, and fair isn't always equal. I'd rather invest time into approaches more unique to Nekotai mechanics and RP.

Wondering more about what I could do with angkai and angkhai to reduce ka costs and remove redundancy. For example, should pierced limbs cost that same ka amount as severed phrenic and pecked eyes? Angkai gut is redundant with Angkhai period. Can I remove relapse from Angkhai (softening greenlock) and place relapsing in Angkai limbs if pierced was to move?

It's 100% proc rate I think, at least that's how it's worked out for me. I was just pointing out the fact that a penalty-less prone exists, is targetable to three locations, and is quite useful, being effectively a kick mod. You can use Kaiga with it if you need a prone and a vessel anyway, it just takes a bit more ka and a punch. I'm unconvinced that another prone on command is the best thing you could be asking for, if you want to look at it from your perspective.

Cannot offer commentary on these most recent Nekotai-specific comments without doing more research than I'm willing to at 11 pm after a long day.

EDIT: Everyone always ignores that poor generic Inept-to-Master Kata trunk. Should look more, there's some interesting diversity in there